Recording Position Palettes for Movers

[Uriahdemon]

Afternoon all, I wondered if anyone can help e with this please.

I have set up two clearly distinct groups for my movers.  One on a rear truss set the other on a front truss set.

I am setting up position palettes for both separately. Unfortunately if I select a group and a position I have set previously including the fixtures in that group, it also affects the movers in the other group i.e. they move to this position also.

Another thing I note when experimenting is that despite saving two groups of movers if I select either when going to the positions palettes both are highlighted.

I have no idea why I have hit this issue but any help would be much appreciated.

PS.....  forgot to add I am using Phantom.  Not tried the desk as yet.

[Davidmk]

Sounds like you have all the movers in both groups and probably in your pallettes as a result.

First, check on the groups screen whether you have "multiple select" or "single select" highlighted. For this you need single. Select one of your groups - if the other is highlighted then the group you have selected contains the fixtures in the other group. Delete both of your groups and recreate them. This will not affect your pallettes.

You could delete and recreate you pallettes making sure you deselect Snapshot and Smart tag in the record options window. Alternatively, select the fixtures you DON'T want in the pallette (and only those), press Update and select remove in the update options window before tapping the pallette.

[Uriahdemon]

9 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

Sounds like you have all the movers in both groups and probably in your pallettes as a result.

First, check on the groups screen whether you have "multiple select" or "single select" highlighted. For this you need single. Select one of your groups - if the other is highlighted then the group you have selected contains the fixtures in the other group. Delete both of your groups and recreate them. This will not affect your pallettes.

You could delete and recreate you pallettes making sure you deselect Snapshot and Smart tag in the record options window. Alternatively, select the fixtures you DON'T want in the pallette (and only those), press Update and select remove in the update options window before tapping the pallette.

Thanks very much Davidmk, I will give it a go this aft

[Uriahdemon]

Hi Davidmk,

I have given that a go and I am afraid I still have the same issue.  I did as you said and was using Multiple selection in Groups so change to Single.  Also when recording both groups and position palettes deselected Snapshot and Smart Tag.

I am using Capture as a visualiser.  When I select each groups it is clear only what I selected is correct as displayed.  Unfortunately when doing entirely different position palettes for them both are illuminated if I use any of the two groups.  I have cleared everything out of my movers groups and position palettes until this is resolved.  These movers are all the same spec and I have a different make/spec set up in groups and positions with no issues.

 

 

 

[KWR88]

can you mail a show file over to me on the address in my signature can take a look at it then.

 

[Uriahdemon]

Thanks Keith and sent over.

[Davidmk]

13 hours ago, Davidmk said:

Alternatively, select the fixtures you DON'T want in the pallette (and only those), press Update and select remove in the update options window before tapping the pallette.

Oops, missed an important bit, should read...

...select the fixtures you DON'T want in the pallette (and only those), press Home and then press Update...

 

Anyway, now you have Keith on the case you won't need me 😀

[Uriahdemon]

Thanks matey, I knew what you meant.  Hopefully Keith will show me the error of my ways pretty soon therefore wont need workarounds 😉

[Davidmk]

Itwould be good if you could report back to the community so we all know what it was.

[Uriahdemon]

I certainly will 

[Uriahdemon]

Davidmk, could I ask a favour please.  Can you confirm if the issue I have does not occur with you, or anyone else who reads this.   I will then be able to suss out if the issue is down to my finger trouble....??

[Davidmk]

I haven't, at least not on a regular basis (I'd put a one-off down to finger trouble I suppose). As it happens I'm doing some offline programming today, part of which is correcting a cue that should have some fixtures in it but has actually got all of them. I'll let you know how that goes.

If you could send me your show & capture files I could load them up and have a play. Got the desk & computer already set up.

[kgallen]

I’ve not got as many movers as you but I do use position palettes and groups a lot and I don’t think I’ve seen this. (FLX 7.13). But that in no way precludes that you’ve not identified a corner case bug!

My only suggestion would be to delete those groups and palettes and then carefully reconstruct the groups and then the palettes. Unless you are doing some blind programming with intensity off, I would expect you can leave SmartTag on. Snapshot however would almost certainly be a bad thing and could easily result in what you’re seeing. 

[Uriahdemon]

2 hours ago, Davidmk said:

I haven't, at least not on a regular basis (I'd put a one-off down to finger trouble I suppose). As it happens I'm doing some offline programming today, part of which is correcting a cue that should have some fixtures in it but has actually got all of them. I'll let you know how that goes.

If you could send me your show & capture files I could load them up and have a play. Got the desk & computer already set up.

Thanks Davidmk, sent you over a message with a Dropbox link to the files.

[Uriahdemon]

12 minutes ago, kgallen said:

I’ve not got as many movers as you but I do use position palettes and groups a lot and I don’t think I’ve seen this. (FLX 7.13). But that in no way precludes that you’ve not identified a corner case bug!

My only suggestion would be to delete those groups and palettes and then carefully reconstruct the groups and then the palettes. Unless you are doing some blind programming with intensity off, I would expect you can leave SmartTag on. Snapshot however would almost certainly be a bad thing and could easily result in what you’re seeing. 

Thanks KGallen, I have deleted the groups and palettes and built them again using and not using SmartTag.  Same issue I am afraid.  It is probably some finger trouble on my behalf (hopefully)  and not a bug as I have some programming to do for next weekend. 

Keith is getting Ed to have a look at this when he comes back from holiday.

[kgallen]

I’d upload your showfile here, some folk might have chance to have a look and a play. Z88 folk aren’t going to respond until Monday earliest. 

[Uriahdemon]

4 minutes ago, kgallen said:

I’d upload your showfile here, some folk might have chance to have a look and a play. Z88 folk aren’t going to respond until Monday earliest. 

OK, and thanks......  

UnReal Festival 2023 v0-1.c2p UnReal Festival 2023 - V0-3 - MOVERS GROUP ISSUES.zos

[kgallen]

4 hours ago, Uriahdemon said:

OK, and thanks......  

UnReal Festival 2023 v0-1.c2p 1.02 MB · 0 downloads UnReal Festival 2023 - V0-3 - MOVERS GROUP ISSUES.zos 342.53 kB · 0 downloads

My Capture version is 2019, you've got a newer version. Any chance you could write out your Capture file in 2019 version - I believe you can do that from the File menu.

Is it your groups HYBRIDS FRONT and HYBRIDS REAR you're having fun with?

Cheers, Kevin

[Uriahdemon]

12 minutes ago, kgallen said:

My Capture version is 2019, you've got a newer version. Any chance you could write out your Capture file in 2019 version - I believe you can do that from the File menu.

Is it your groups HYBRIDS FRONT and HYBRIDS READ you're having fun with?

Cheers, Kevin

Yes those are the ones although I deleted a whole more to get this fixed first. The problem seems to happen with any spec mover though. I will have a look at the Capture file although it is not really needed for this.  When even selecting one single Hybrid all position palettes highlight....??

 

[kgallen]

1 hour ago, Uriahdemon said:

Yes those are the ones although I deleted a whole more to get this fixed first. The problem seems to happen with any spec mover though. I will have a look at the Capture file although it is not really needed for this.  When even selecting one single Hybrid all position palettes highlight....??

 

I’ll work through it and look for that. From what I’ve done so far I don’t see the pan and tilt values for the other group changing. I’ll look more and get back.  

[kgallen]

1 hour ago, Uriahdemon said:

When even selecting one single Hybrid all position palettes highlight....??

Yes I'm seeing that, I'll investigate.

[kgallen]

18 minutes ago, kgallen said:

Yes I'm seeing that, I'll investigate.

Hold on a sec, yes, that's fine - they are all exactly the same fixture type, so that means the desk could apply the position palette to any of them if you wanted to - even though you recorded that position palette using another group. But that other group did contain an Intimidator.

From what I worked through, I could select FRONT or REAR and apply either their "own" or the "other" position palette and only the selected ones are moved - in so far as I can tell from the Pan and Tilt values on the internal screen.

So this looks ok so far. I you are able to provide a Capture 2019 visualisation I can check that the non-selected fixtures aren't affected by the palette when not selected.

HTH so far...

[kgallen]

@Uriahdemon

I created my own groups and position palettes from scratch in the way I would usually do it, and it seems fine. I think the confusion is that the two groups contain a common fixture type (the Intimidator). This means the desk is perfectly able to apply a palette to any of those two groups that are selected, even though you only recorded the palette against one of the group. I only see the selected ones change position.

If I record a group that doesn't contain any of those Intimidator fixtures then the position palettes recorded with Intimidator groups don't highlight.

If I record a group with Intimidator plus other different fixtures, then when selected, the position palettes do highlight, because they can be applied to that fixture group - but they would only change the position of the Intimidators.

The palette isn't programmed against the group that was selected, it programmes against a fixture type. So if you had 6 groups that contained Intimidators, you'd only have to record the palette against one group then that position could be applied to Intimidators that were selected by a different group. HOWEVER, there will be some potential differences. If you are recording a position palette against a group with say a fan, if you then selected a different group of Intimidators, I don't know how that fan is applied to the new group. Possibly the position palette is applied across the fixtures in the same order as in the original programming. i.e. if you recorded a fan from fixtures 1,2,3,4,5, then applied that palette to a group with fixtures 6,7,8,9,10 I assume the position of 1 will be used as the position of 6 etc up to pos of 5 applied to the pos of 10. I don't have more than 4 movers of the same type so I've never really had to work out how a palette recorded on one fixture group gets applied to another fixture group!

Seems ok to me. What did I miss?

[kgallen]

The manual says this:

If any of the selected fixtures are not actually programmed in the applied palette, but there are one or more fixtures of the same type that are programmed, the fixture will use the values programmed for the first fixture of the same type.

https://www.zero88.com/manuals/zeros/palettes/using-palettes

 

[Uriahdemon]

Thanks Kgallen,  you are absolutely right.  I also have been using groups and position palettes for quite some time and never noticed the points you bring up. I just cracked on and used them.  Only this time I seem to have got myself into a real tizzy. Thanks for your and Davidmk's help in clearing the fog.  I will now go away and lie down in a dark room with a cold cloth.  My apologies  !