Colour behaviour

[Gerran]

Since the update to ZerOS 7.12 and now 7.13 (We've missed 7.10) the colour behaviour is totally unpredictable in my opinion. We have 2 different type of fixtures: Infinity fixtures (TS-270-C7, TF-260-C7, TCyc-7 all in RGB Pro mode) and Oxo-Lite TourLEDPro 28 Zoom (Ar2.Z mode 7ch). Both fixture types behave in a peculiar way I cannot get my head around. 

The inifinity Fixtures have a dedicated colour temperature channel in the DMX chart, but when I select a colour from the LEE library, the colour temperature is changed. Also when i adjust the colour (Red, Green and/or Blue) with the encoder wheels, the temperature value changes. Why is that? 

The same behaviour is observed with the TourLED's, but with the dedicated 'white' channel. So when I adjust for example red and blue encoderwheels below a certain value, white value is lowered as well. 

Another issue we noticed is that the LEE colours for the Infinity fixtures are not even close to the supposed values. LEE 106 for example should be red, but the light output is orange/yellow. 

Last issue (for this post): when a group of the same fixtures is selected and given a colour from the LEE library (and the colour temperature value is adjusted with that for some reason) and after that another colour is selected, all the fictures get new colour (expected) and termperature (why?) values EXCEPT the first fixture in the group. That fixture only gets new colour values but remains the temperature value of the firstly selected colour. 

I'm wondering what we're doing wrong, or is my line of thinking wrong and should I change my workflow? 

[Edward Z88]

Hi @Gerran

I'll be able to provide a more detailed reply when I’m next in front of my computer, however based on your initial description it sounds like you may be using the fixture from your show file, rather than the fixture from the latest software. 

If you have loaded in a show file from an earlier software version, ZerOS may use the fixtures from the show file, instead of fixtures from the library. Within the Fixture Schedule, you should see the option to convert/change this fixture, to replace it with the latest version from the library. 

The colour control should behave as expected. 

Let us know if you have any questions.

Edward

[Gerran]

Thanks Edward, for your swift reaction. After the update to ZerOs 7.12 I've changed all fixtures with the new profiles available in the library. That "empty" show is the default show that we're building on as of now.

Perhaps it's better to completely rebuilt a default "empty" swow from scratch? I'll see if I can find the time in the upcoming week to do so.

[Edward Z88]

Hi @Gerran

ZerOS 7.11 software introduced a new Colour Mixing system. Please watch the video below if you'd like to learn more...

One of the features of the new colour mixing system, is that ZerOS can now factor in colour temperature parameters. ZerOS will use colour temperature parameters that  have a continuous range from one colour temperature value through to another. ZerOS will not use colour temperature parameters that have discrete temperature "presets".

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 PM, Gerran said:

The inifinity Fixtures have a dedicated colour temperature channel in the DMX chart, but when I select a colour from the LEE library, the colour temperature is changed.

According to the fixture's manual, the Colour Temperature parameter allows you to adjust the fixture's light output from 2000K @ 0 to 8000K @ 255. ZerOS will therefore use this parameter when using the various colour mixing tools, including LEE filters.

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 PM, Gerran said:

Another issue we noticed is that the LEE colours for the Infinity fixtures are not even close to the supposed values. LEE 106 for example should be red, but the light output is orange/yellow. 

My guess in this situation is that the Infinity fixture's Green LEDs are more intense than ZerOS expects at the low end. After applying the filter, you will therefore need to dial down the level of Green using the encoder wheels to fine-tune the colour. You can then save the custom colour as a colour palette, to quickly recall your shade of red.

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 PM, Gerran said:

The same behaviour is observed with the TourLED's, but with the dedicated 'white' channel. So when I adjust for example red and blue encoderwheels below a certain value, white value is lowered as well. 

To confirm, are you using the "Expolite TourLED Pro 28 Zoom"? I am not able to replicate the behaviour you describe in ZerOS 7.13 software. Adjusting the fixture's red and blue encoder wheels, correctly does not affect the fixture's White parameter. When using the onscreen RGB colour faders, these do correctly adjust the fixture's white parameter.

On 9/24/2022 at 2:54 PM, Gerran said:

Last issue (for this post): when a group of the same fixtures is selected and given a colour from the LEE library (and the colour temperature value is adjusted with that for some reason) and after that another colour is selected, all the fictures get new colour (expected) and termperature (why?) values EXCEPT the first fixture in the group. That fixture only gets new colour values but remains the temperature value of the firstly selected colour. 

Thank you very much for the description of this behaviour. I have been able to replicate this issue, and can see that the colour temperature parameter of the first fixture in the selection occasionally does not change upon applying a filter. This issue is logged as reference number ZOS-11120 on our system, scheduled to be fixed in the next software update.

On 9/25/2022 at 8:24 AM, Gerran said:

After the update to ZerOs 7.12 I've changed all fixtures with the new profiles available in the library.

If you wish to control these fixtures in the "legacy" method, with the Colour Temperature parameter not used by the colour mixing, the original versions of these Infinity fixtures can be downloaded from the links below...

• https://www.zero88.com/fixtures/legacy-library/Legacy library (gft41.0)/INFINITY/TS-260C7 Profile.ift
• https://www.zero88.com/fixtures/legacy-library/Legacy library (gft41.0)/INFINITY/TF-260C7 Fresnel.ift
• https://www.zero88.com/fixtures/legacy-library/Legacy library (gft41.0)/INFINITY/TCyc-7 Cyclorama.ift

Once downloaded, you can save these files to a USB drive. You can then load each file into the console from the USB drive. You can then patch the loaded files, which will be displayed in red text, rather than using the library fixtures.

I hope this information is helpful. If you have any questions, please let me know.

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi @Gerran and @Edward Z88

Thank you for your interesting questions and responses above.

Regarding ZOS-11120:

41 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

Thank you very much for the description of this behaviour. I have been able to replicate this issue, and can see that the colour temperature parameter of the first fixture in the selection occasionally does not change upon applying a filter. This issue is logged as reference number ZOS-11120 on our system, scheduled to be fixed in the next software update.

Edward, would you be able to elaborate on the conditions for this issue occurring and if there is a workaround when using 7.13. I have a large/complex show coming up in October so I would like to be up to speed with handling this.

Thanks, Kevin

[Gerran]

Great Edward, thanks a lot for your extensive reply. I'll be checking on the console later this week and report back here. 

[Edward Z88]

Hi @kgallen

1 hour ago, kgallen said:

Edward, would you be able to elaborate on the conditions for this issue occurring and if there is a workaround when using 7.13. I have a large/complex show coming up in October so I would like to be up to speed with handling this.

You will only encounter this if you are using fixtures with a colour temperature parameter, that has a single continuous colour temperature range. If you are using fixtures without a colour temperature parameter, or you are using fixtures that have a colour temperature parameter with discrete presets, you will not encounter this.

The work around is to simply apply the filter twice. This then applies the filter to the first selected fixture's colour temperature parameter.

Edward

[Edward Z88]

Hi @Gerran

1 hour ago, Gerran said:

Great Edward, thanks a lot for your extensive reply. I'll be checking on the console later this week and report back here. 

No problem at all - just let us know if you have any questions.

Edward

[Gerran]

So, I've finaly been able to do some testing when completely repatching our rig from scratch. Unfortunately the colours from the LEE library still don't match the expected colour output. For the rest of my reported 'issues' I think we'll have to get used to the new colour mixing system. Thank you again @Edward Z88 for taking the time to explain it to us. 

We did have quite some palletes made with matching colours (as close as we could get them) of our Expolite TourLED Pro 28 Zoom and Infinity fixtures. Unfortunately they don't match as good anymore, so I'll be spending some time making up new custom pallets. 

[kgallen]

I rigged my FLX 7.13 last night with some RGBW LED movers. I find the (Lee) swatch colours very pale as they seem to contain a lot of the white emitter - although I don’t know if this is different to before. For this show I used a Lee swatch book to pick a fair few colours but I’ve ended up mixing my own to get some saturation back, especially on the blues.

Side question - I used the colour faders screen quite a bit (like the Sat slider) - and it was very useful - but it’s very sensitive: can these controls be brought down onto the encoders?

Of course my fixtures aren’t colour calibrated as they are ‘cheap’ so by no means am I a reference here.

As prep I did a factory reset (7.13 on the desk) and then reloaded my fixture definitions and patched afresh.

[Edward Z88]

11 hours ago, Gerran said:

Unfortunately the colours from the LEE library still don't match the expected colour output.

1 hour ago, kgallen said:

I find the (Lee) swatch colours very pale as they seem to contain a lot of the white emitter - although I don’t know if this is different to before.

2 hours ago, kgallen said:

Of course by fixtures aren’t colour calibrated as they are ‘cheap’ so by no means am I a reference here.

As @kgallen mentions, the accuracy of the colour filters ultimately comes down to the fixtures. We have done testing with both our Acclaim series (RGBL engine), and our Aurora/Cantata/Coda/Leko fixtures (RGBALC engine), which give good results.

The colour filter values were updated in ZerOS 7.11, so there is a good chance they look different compared to earlier software. In ZerOS 7.11, all colour filters were updated to use the latest information from LEE and Carallon, our fixture database provider.

1 hour ago, kgallen said:

Side question - I used the colour faders screen quite a bit (like the Sat slider) - and it was very useful - but it’s very sensitive: can these controls be brought down onto the encoders?

I've personally not found the faders window to be too sensitive, however I do like the idea of being able to use the encoder wheels to adjust these faders. I have logged this suggestion, reference number ZOS-11157.

Let us know if you have any questions.

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi Edward,

Thanks for the answers.

26 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

As @kgallen mentions, the accuracy of the colour filters ultimately comes down to the fixtures. We have done testing with both our Acclaim series (RGBL engine), and our Aurora/Cantata/Coda/Leko fixtures (RGBALC engine), which give good results.

But no fixtures with a (cool) white emitter? (Or is that the "C" on the Strand fixtures?)

26 minutes ago, Edward Z88 said:

I've personally not found the faders window to be too sensitive, however I do like the idea of being able to use the encoder wheels to adjust these faders. I have logged this suggestion, reference number ZOS-11157.

Maybe not the case on a large external screen, but on the internal screen if you get towards the end (like I was doing with the Sat fader), it jumps about like crazy with big changes in fixture response. It is a screen I've not used much before, but I've now got a new-found interest in it as it was very useful in the respect of adjusting "Sat" for example. The R/G/B can of course be set on the encoders, so the faders are of less concern. But it's good to have that screen.

(Broke out side-chatter to a separate thread to avoid hijacking this one more!).

Kevin

 

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

29 minutes ago, kgallen said:

But no fixtures with a (cool) white emitter? (Or is that the "C" on the Strand fixtures?)

We have tested on standard RGBW fixtures as well. The "C" emitter is Cyan.

29 minutes ago, kgallen said:

on the internal screen if you get towards the end (like I was doing with the Sat fader), it jumps about like crazy with big changes in fixture response. It is a screen I've not used much before, but I've now got a new-found interest in it as it was very useful in the respect of adjusting "Sat" for example.

Using the internal touchscreen, the onscreen colour faders seem to be tracking finger movement pretty accurately. If you're not seeing this, would you be able to capture a video of this and email it to me?

Edward