FLX control via Midi.

[stowedout]

Hi @Davidmk@Uriahdemon and @Edward- Z88

I've done a bit of work within Lightjams software converting  midi CC data to  Midi note data. After sorting that out it became clear that I really hadn't understood ZerOS processing of Midi notes. As the velocity information is used to determine the fade up time, as soon as I move a CC fader the FLX playback triggers with a fade up time that relates to the position of the CC fader on the midi controller. Now that I understand this I can work with a pad controller and keep anything that I want flexible control of on page 1 Something like this

Beam fixtures intensity  controlled by a MFF fader page 1 

Beam Colour changes page 4 triggered by Launchpad

Beam effects page 4  triggered by Launchpad

Beam Effect size controlled by a MFF fader page 1 (I can then make the beam sweep bigger or small during a show)

Edward can you tell me how software tracker reference number ZOS-10271 might work. I know I might looking for  a very personal vision of how I use my FLX and I'm always open to see how other people might use it but I would want the ability to assign induvial CC's to certain MFF eg some playbacks triggered by midi notes and some controlled by CC's

Chris 

[Davidmk]

2 hours ago, stowedout said:

flexible control of on page 1

I've kept the first 6 pages for midi control and moved my flexible control to pages 7 & 8 so I can use notes direct, can't say I've noticed velocity making any difference to fade times.

[Edward Z88]

Hi Chris,

11 hours ago, stowedout said:

Edward can you tell me how software tracker reference number ZOS-10271 might work. I know I might looking for  a very personal vision of how I use my FLX and I'm always open to see how other people might use it but I would want the ability to assign induvial CC's to certain MFF eg some playbacks triggered by midi notes and some controlled by CC's

Currently, the draft specification for this would be similar to how MIDI Notes is now, in terms of it is simply mapped 1:1. There wouldn't be any means of mapping MIDI CC to individual faders - CC 20 would be channel 20, or playback 20, depending on whether CC is set to Channels or Playbacks control in Setup -> Triggers.

You would therefore still be able to achieve controlling playbacks with Notes and CC, and in your MIDI package you can just control a playback with whichever method works for you.

These CC levels would mix with the playbacks, in exactly the same way FLX with a Wing does, when FLX and Wing are both on the same page.

As I said, this is initial draft specifications. No plans yet. OSC implementation may come first.

Hope this helps,

Edward

[Edward Z88]

Hi David,

9 hours ago, Davidmk said:

can't say I've noticed velocity making any difference to fade times.

A Velocity of 0 will not trigger the playback. A velocity of 1 will give a 5 second fade time to full, and as the velocity is increased, this will shorten the fade time, until you reach a velocity of 127 which will Snap.

Edward

[Davidmk]

3 hours ago, Edward- Z88 said:

No plans yet

Well, if there are no plans perhaps I could put some ideas out there

1. Backwards compatibility. As we can see from this topic people have invested time and money in making the current facilities work for them.
2. That said, maybe you could fiddle with the code around "first note" so that, while still being able to map note 0 to pb 1 you could map it or note 1 to any starting point.
3. Could you borrow from the remote switches functionality and make midi notes work like a much bigger set of remotes?
4. That would have a significant on the size of the setup screen so it might not fly but perhaps you could allow notes to execute macros direct rather than having to use pbs & cues to execute them.
5. Notice I'm not mentioning CC, TimeCode, show control or any other midi controls. The more reasonably priced midi surfaces are predominately note based so I haven't really looked into them.
6. Buttons are badly neglected with no button wing. Let's face it, if there was a button wing we might not even be having this conversation. In it's absence maybe you could allow notes to trigger buttons.
7. The community would absolutely love USB midi, think how often that comes up in the forum.

I've had a long career in software so I have tried to see how existing functionality could be extended, you have code that recognises incoming midi which could, perhaps, trigger existing code for remote switches and buttons. I do recognise that it isn't that simple and you cannot risk anything that would impact performance of the rest of the code but it must be worth a look.

4 hours ago, Edward- Z88 said:

OSC implementation may come first

I would have loved that when I first got my desk, I used to use it with QLC+, but there's something about a physical control that gives you more confidence when busking so now I have midi working and I have made the investment in midi hardware I am less bothered.

I could see the attraction for others using their existing tablets and if faders could actually be used to fade pb's then I might dabble with it myself.

[stowedout]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:17 AM, Edward- Z88 said:

Hi Chris,

Currently, the draft specification for this would be similar to how MIDI Notes is now, in terms of it is simply mapped 1:1. There wouldn't be any means of mapping MIDI CC to individual faders - CC 20 would be channel 20, or playback 20, depending on whether CC is set to Channels or Playbacks control in Setup -> Triggers.

You would therefore still be able to achieve controlling playbacks with Notes and CC, and in your MIDI package you can just control a playback with whichever method works for you.

These CC levels would mix with the playbacks, in exactly the same way FLX with a Wing does, when FLX and Wing are both on the same page.

As I said, this is initial draft specifications. No plans yet. OSC implementation may come first.

Hope this helps,

Edward

Hi @Edward- Z88 thanks for your reply. Just to clarify the Zero88 plan would be to globally choose CC or Note control not choose the control method for each playback or channel? I agree with @Davidmk something like the remote switches functionality to allocate control would be great

[Davidmk]

 

58 minutes ago, stowedout said:

choose CC or Note control not choose the control method for each playback or channel

One thing to remember is that even you have midi notes and/or CC assigned to playbacks you can still operate them through the desk so, while the number of controls you can use through midi is limited by the midi specification, which are actually controlled by midi depends on which notes/CCs you choose to send. I think!

Mapping midi notes to macros would let you trigger any 127 (or 128) things. I presume "things" could be cues, playback, buttons or whatever you can put together a macro for (e.g. something silly like select group, apply position & beam pallettes and select colour with the macro then use colour picker to pick a range of colours manually)  if that is what takes your fancy. 

Am I right Edward?

[Edward Z88]

Hi David & Chris,

59 minutes ago, stowedout said:

Just to clarify the Zero88 plan would be to globally choose CC or Note control not choose the control method for each playback or channel?

Currently this is envisioned that CC is simply a fourth MIDI option within Triggers. This could then be set to Playbacks, Channels, or disabled.

6 minutes ago, Davidmk said:

Mapping midi notes to macros would let you trigger any 127 (or 128) things. I presume "things" could be cues, playback, buttons or whatever you can put together a macro

Currently you have Cues, Playbacks and Channels for Notes control. In theory we could add a fourth MIDI Notes option to this for Macros. Which as you could say, could then trigger almost anything you wanted.

Edward

[Davidmk]

20 minutes ago, Edward- Z88 said:

In theory we could add a fourth MIDI Notes option to this for Macros. Which as you could say, could then trigger almost anything you wanted.

That ought be enough to shut all of us up on the midi front, what are the odds it could happen?

[Edward Z88]

Hi David,

20 hours ago, Davidmk said:

That ought be enough to shut all of us up on the midi front, what are the odds it could happen?

I’ve got a couple of day’s off, however when I’m back in the (home) office, I will log this suggestion on the system and give you a reference. 

Edward

[Davidmk]

Thanks Edward. Glad to hear you do get time off, enjoy

 

[stowedout]

Enjoy your time off @Edward- Z88 

You must be sick of David and myself and our midi crusade 😅 

If you add a CC option to playbacks or channels do we not still end up with an option that is frustrating as a 3rd party controller may output both CC and note info but we will have to choose which these we decide to use .

Now I have Capture duet edition I was planning to write some Macros (I've steered away in the past as they can't be edited ) Do we not already have Midi note control of Macros as soon as they are assigned to a playback?

[Edward Z88]

Hello,

1 hour ago, stowedout said:

Enjoy your time off @Edward- Z88 

You must be sick of David and myself and our midi crusade 😅 

Not at all! It is great to hear how you’re getting more out of FLX.

1 hour ago, stowedout said:

If you add a CC option to playbacks or channels do we not still end up with an option that is frustrating as a 3rd party controller may output both CC and note info but we will have to choose which these we decide to use .

Currently, you could enable both MIDI Notes and MIDI Show Control, and use both MIDI protocols. You could therefore in theory enable both Notes and CC if required.

1 hour ago, stowedout said:

Do we not already have Midi note control of Macros as soon as they are assigned to a playback?

Yes, every cue on every playback can trigger a macro, or multiple macros. Therefore you can already trigger macros from MIDI notes, by triggering multiple cues in a playback that have macro triggers, and configuring Notes to trigger cues. Or alternatively record a single cue onto various playbacks, and configure Notes to trigger playbacks. 

Edward

[Davidmk]

3 hours ago, stowedout said:

output both CC and note info but we will have to choose

I think it's more a matter of not having a choice, those controllers with buttons you can't use because they only send CCs. Enabling both CCs and notes would mean you could fire a given pb with either the note or CC with the equivalent value. You'd still only get the first 128 playbacks maximum.

(From here I assume you have chosen to use as many midi controls as possible, references to 128 would, of course, be less if you only have a few controls on your chosen midi device.)

5 hours ago, stowedout said:

Do we not already have Midi note control of Macros as soon as they are assigned to a playback

Yes, we do. It still means reserving the first 128 playbacks, mostly doing nothing themselves, just redirecting to macros to do things with other playbacks.

It is worth noting that you don't actually have to have a recorded macro if all you want to do is trigger a cue in another playback - there's syntax you can type into the advanced option of the cues macro setup. I discovered this too late but, actually, I quite like having a recorded macro so I've kept it that way.

Firing the 1st 128 macros direct from midi removes a step from the setup along with the related "opportunity" to call the wrong one. It frees up those 128 playbacks (nearly half of them) returning the flexibility to run from whichever page you want and pushes all your midi stuff into the background where you are less likely to record over it or delete it.

Finally, and this is an obsession born from 45 years of programming computers, it's just right - it is the obvious thing that should be triggered by an external input because it effectively makes that input do whatever you want it to.

Finally...

On 10/23/2020 at 1:50 PM, Davidmk said:

maybe you could fiddle with the code around "first note"

If you could choose your own start point for notes and CCs then you could have pbs 1 to 128 controlled by notes and 129 to 256 controlled by CCs (except you couldn't because there's only 240 pbs but you get the idea).

[Edward Z88]

Hello,

On 10/25/2020 at 6:20 PM, Edward- Z88 said:

I’ve got a couple of day’s off, however when I’m back in the (home) office, I will log this suggestion on the system and give you a reference. 

 

Logged as reference number ZOS-10517 on our software tracking system.

On 10/26/2020 at 1:05 AM, Davidmk said:

It is worth noting that you don't actually have to have a recorded macro if all you want to do is trigger a cue in another playback - there's syntax you can type into the advanced option of the cues macro setup. I discovered this too late but, actually, I quite like having a recorded macro so I've kept it that way.

 

For more information on this, see below...

http://support.zero88.com/1836040771

Hope this helps,

Edward

[Davidmk]

2 hours ago, Edward- Z88 said:

Logged as reference number ZOS-10517

Thanks Edward.

[Uriahdemon]

On 10/13/2020 at 11:33 AM, Edward- Z88 said:

Hi Mac,

Currently ZerOS does not support MIDI over USB, and so you will not be able to trigger Phantom ZerOS with MIDI.

You will however be able to do all of your MIDI configuration in Phantom, save the show and load in into your FLX, and your FLX will then be preconfigured ready to accept MIDI triggers.

Edward

Hi Ed,

I was wondering if there is any intention for Phantom ZerOS to be able to trigger with MIDI and if not could there be.  Given the cost of a Phantom ZerOS unlock dongle I would expect it to be able to provide all the connectivity available from the FLX....??

 

[Uriahdemon]

Just a note on labelling the Launchpad.

I have been experimenting with a whole sheet of transparent fablon and it is working a treat.  You can of course us the dymo labeller (for neatness) as the surface it is going on takes and stays much better. 

 

[Davidmk]

Ah, now I've been trying OHP film with the buttons and labels printed onto it with a cut out plastic frame underneath. It works but I think I need a precision cut frame.

I print the OHP in reverse and then turn it over so the ink is protected - especially useful if I wanted to put traditional LX tape labels on top and I attach it to the frame (and the frame to the Launch) with double sided tape. I'm happy with that part of it.

In trying to make the frame a precise match I printed the button layout onto an A4 label and stuck that to my sheet of 1.5mm plastic but my cutting out with a Stanley knife left a lot to be desired. I only cut out the outside, not the little bits in between the buttons, but it was still too rough and I snapped the frame in one place.

It worked though - I was afraid that pressing a button might trigger one of the adjacent buttons but that didn't seem to be a problem so the principle seems sound.

I have been toying with buying a cnc cutter as it could open up some possibilities in other projects. Making frames in a precise and repeatable way may just be the excuse I need and if it works out I'll be able to make as many as I want with very little effort.

[Edward Z88]

Hi Mac,

Hope you’re well.

38 minutes ago, Uriahdemon said:

I was wondering if there is any intention for Phantom ZerOS to be able to trigger with MIDI and if not could there be. 

Currently ZerOS doesn’t support MIDI triggers over USB, however this is something we may look to implement. This would then allow Phantom to be triggered too.

OSC is another trigger method that’s on the roadmap, and as that is over IP that could natively trigger consoles as well as Phantom.

You will be able to preconfigure MIDI settings on Phantom, ready to transfer the show over to your console. If you need to use Timecode on Phantom, you can use Real time triggers, by configuring your laptop’s clock.

38 minutes ago, Uriahdemon said:

Given the cost of a Phantom ZerOS unlock dongle I would expect it to be able to provide all the connectivity available from the FLX....??

The main justification of the cost is the fact that when unlocked, Phantom can output 8192 channels of DMX over 64 Ethernet universes. 

Edward

[Uriahdemon]

35 minutes ago, Edward- Z88 said:

Hi Mac,

Hope you’re well.

Currently ZerOS doesn’t support MIDI triggers over USB, however this is something we may look to implement. This would then allow Phantom to be triggered too.

OSC is another trigger method that’s on the roadmap, and as that is over IP that could natively trigger consoles as well as Phantom.

You will be able to preconfigure MIDI settings on Phantom, ready to transfer the show over to your console. If you need to use Timecode on Phantom, you can use Real time triggers, by configuring your laptop’s clock.

The main justification of the cost is the fact that when unlocked, Phantom can output 8192 channels of DMX over 64 Ethernet universes. 

Edward

Hi Ed, good thanks and hopefully the same with you.

I find it hard to believe that the ordinary run of the mill lampy controlling a show with a PC/laptop would be requiring 8192 channels of DMX regularly. The use of a MIDI trigger when using a PC/laptop would be far more plausible.

 

 

[Uriahdemon]

Good afternoon all.

Just an update on a method for labelling the Launchpad.  I made an MS Excel template which I draft and then print onto A4 transparent and adhesive film.  The printer used was a bog standard Epson Stylus.

I have been testing it for a week now and I cannot see any deterioration of the print and of course the flexibility of the film only allows for the triggering of one button only.

No problem in sending you a copy of the template if you want to give it a try.

 

[Davidmk]

8 hours ago, Uriahdemon said:

A4 transparent and adhesive film

And that sticks OK? I'm impressed! Have you got a link to the film you used?

[Uriahdemon]

17 hours ago, Davidmk said:

And that sticks OK? I'm impressed! Have you got a link to the film you used?

Yes seems just fine....

Here is a link to the pix I have put together for it. Includes info on the film and have also included the template.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7y2lwf4pmpfcc4f/AAAiYduOhCyycuGAQGW2-3Mva?dl=0

On the film this was some stuff I have had lying around for years but also just ordered some water resistant film.  Here is the link for that:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Sheets-A4-Transparent-Self-Adhesive-Printable-Sticky-Film-Water-Resistance/112572032253?epid=1867791207&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item1a35d0e4fd:g:c2cAAOSwGIBZpwyz&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACoBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkAgU0umhwUTmgTFbE5cu7zW4El0L7p0Vw7tFVv8xSK5zyRnHD9%2FbAwcmtjrsWZL4St0fAZB4xg4ouPRIQyLGFCMnsdUtUIMNJlfsoD3hJx2GTJ0kyUljCXUrTHxRHD%2BHHBOQ9QbfgSqJa36ccuuAu15TsbwUO5mFI%2BqlNWDBqTNUi45WaN8ecRQ9AJE0l0%2F8pvUVXUAfq%2BUgghDEVm38gWmz4DYb4a8lzz1D35HJEtiDOH6KynM0cOt5Xvaa6twbzHUOgYY0LaSaiGvcivoHwvytZctj7ufVWFO0diduodLQrOaMl18eP6SCKP5Ao9O54KJAe1qel%2FhpztVgj4IETyvZ5o2l0Hd%2FYadZKgjyWqDI9JM5Nwzbgvkq2cqjmF%2BbnNE7XOoJPFhhuzslpJQBPaiUp7zHiQTzwHz5ITbcsmI1gAyRwLFEPWhH4M99fQl01AQSqX7V32n%2FZEwA%2F0LrXcoahb4yTH982zYevY16uuok9aWEY0xLuDUsH5arDveBTJj4R65Q%2BaERphCtKBniGmE4VJFd9sv9j%2B55r050dHRphfZ1I0SrRVkw%2BIET%2FeehkLdPOLA3C%2BbBGGEqwelw0bFM3eUqVJye9BxJafy185l7z2rbnUg89KlVgjiXTxtGJuhHtIH7KHxaiadJ12xpyuIIJ%2F4Vg9BqkJdQGO%2BeLdsL2jH%2B8rzY5eORz0%2FVGjTNmW2bGe5WNofRkGK43LjcoDISOauMJm%2FhpC1%2Fa8Zl0jMyKFjrg7SFPELtqUw7OnQZdswq%2Bivqzaah2PdO4JdWgWn8gg9EXWSP%2F7drAhtV%2B6U5edbnD0gleRY76Gii1nS5Rohnv6Ea8FfYLwnVEWIGBsw%3D%3D|cksum%3A112572032253ebacc70539744b569c53e67ee77007b3|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A2334524

Give me a shout if you have any more questions.

 

 

[stowedout]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:54 PM, Uriahdemon said:

Yes seems just fine....

Here is a link to the pix I have put together for it. Includes info on the film and have also included the template.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7y2lwf4pmpfcc4f/AAAiYduOhCyycuGAQGW2-3Mva?dl=0

On the film this was some stuff I have had lying around for years but also just ordered some water resistant film.  Here is the link for that:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Sheets-A4-Transparent-Self-Adhesive-Printable-Sticky-Film-Water-Resistance/112572032253?epid=1867791207&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item1a35d0e4fd:g:c2cAAOSwGIBZpwyz&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACoBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkAgU0umhwUTmgTFbE5cu7zW4El0L7p0Vw7tFVv8xSK5zyRnHD9%2FbAwcmtjrsWZL4St0fAZB4xg4ouPRIQyLGFCMnsdUtUIMNJlfsoD3hJx2GTJ0kyUljCXUrTHxRHD%2BHHBOQ9QbfgSqJa36ccuuAu15TsbwUO5mFI%2BqlNWDBqTNUi45WaN8ecRQ9AJE0l0%2F8pvUVXUAfq%2BUgghDEVm38gWmz4DYb4a8lzz1D35HJEtiDOH6KynM0cOt5Xvaa6twbzHUOgYY0LaSaiGvcivoHwvytZctj7ufVWFO0diduodLQrOaMl18eP6SCKP5Ao9O54KJAe1qel%2FhpztVgj4IETyvZ5o2l0Hd%2FYadZKgjyWqDI9JM5Nwzbgvkq2cqjmF%2BbnNE7XOoJPFhhuzslpJQBPaiUp7zHiQTzwHz5ITbcsmI1gAyRwLFEPWhH4M99fQl01AQSqX7V32n%2FZEwA%2F0LrXcoahb4yTH982zYevY16uuok9aWEY0xLuDUsH5arDveBTJj4R65Q%2BaERphCtKBniGmE4VJFd9sv9j%2B55r050dHRphfZ1I0SrRVkw%2BIET%2FeehkLdPOLA3C%2BbBGGEqwelw0bFM3eUqVJye9BxJafy185l7z2rbnUg89KlVgjiXTxtGJuhHtIH7KHxaiadJ12xpyuIIJ%2F4Vg9BqkJdQGO%2BeLdsL2jH%2B8rzY5eORz0%2FVGjTNmW2bGe5WNofRkGK43LjcoDISOauMJm%2FhpC1%2Fa8Zl0jMyKFjrg7SFPELtqUw7OnQZdswq%2Bivqzaah2PdO4JdWgWn8gg9EXWSP%2F7drAhtV%2B6U5edbnD0gleRY76Gii1nS5Rohnv6Ea8FfYLwnVEWIGBsw%3D%3D|cksum%3A112572032253ebacc70539744b569c53e67ee77007b3|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A2334524

Give me a shout if you have any more questions.

 

 

That looks great. Ill have a go with that

Chris

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