Still confused by recording Effects palettes

[kgallen]

I'm still confused by how I record an Effect that has the ICBPE components I want and not the ones I don't. In this example I don't want Position recording. I just have my movers pointing where I can see the Effect I'm trying to create, not where they will be if/when I use this Effect palette.

OK so I'm trying to get myself a decent Fire effect. I'm using 7.9.5.

I point the movers where I can see the result. The Position is not required as part of the Effects palette - I want the colour, the beamshape and the effect attributes. The intensity too if I must.

For the purposes of creating effect I put the fixtures to intensity full. I trigger the 7.9.5 Fire effect. I get the flickering and adjust up the speed to where I want it. But the effect is washed out (the fixtures started from Home).

So I go to colour and take out all the blue and half of the green, which leaves me at Red=255, Green=80, Blue=0 (and other colours White, Amber=0).

I go to Beamshape and get that as required.

It now looks (C/B/E) how I want it. So I want to dump this to an Effects palette so I can recall it. From previous advice I know I need to do a Record All because I want to trap multiple attributes (ICBE).

So Shift+Record to get up the Record Options dialogue box.

By default Snapshot is enabled (red bar), so I can't adjust much else. For now I'll say if I use these default options, I can save the Effects palette and it's labelled as ICBPE and if I clean up then trigger it I get what I want but including the mover position, which I don't want to record to the palette - but at least I know it "works". So I know I need to customise the Record All to avoid recording the P.

Let's do it again. I get the Effect back how I want it.

So on the Record All dialogue, I turn off Snapshot (neither Snapshot or Smart Tag are lit red). This means that I can toggle the other buttons.

So I set Intensity, Colour, Beamshape and Effect to red (on) and Position to blue (off). I tap the palette. It's labelled as "E". So it hasn't recorded the I, C or B elements.

If I clean up and recall the palette: it's junk. The only parts I get from it are the flicker and the speed (so the "E" part). The colour is the Home default - white. The beamshape settings are not as I set them, they are also Home defaults. I'm not surprised - the palette is labelled as "E" when I need it to contain "ICBE".

I've tried lots of other combinations on the Record Options form, trying smart tag, having some buttons with the green bar (what's that?). Trying Selected Fixtures and Tagged Fixtures.

So how? Why is this (still) so hard/confusing? What am I not doing correctly?

Thanks, Kevin

The attached Record Option dialogue shows what I want to record: selected fixtures, I/C/B/E. Not P. But it doesn't. Second picture shows two Effects palettes. The "Pyre" one, recorded with these settings says "E" - not ICBE. The "Pyre all" is from Snapshot settings and says ICBPE. These attribute labels do reflect what's in there.

[kgallen]

Poke... LX plot this week, so would appreciate knowing if I'm doing something wrong or if there's a potential bug and I need to go about this a different way. Thanks.

[SimonH]

Think they're all at ABTT so there will be radio silence for a while!

[kgallen]

Ar*e. Thanks Simon...

[Peachy001]

On 6/4/2019 at 9:41 AM, kgallen said:

Poke... LX plot this week, so would appreciate knowing if I'm doing something wrong or if there's a potential bug and I need to go about this a different way. Thanks.

Yes what you are doing should work, but if it doesn't try this.

if you select all the fixtures, go into positions and tap on the blue highlighted tilt and pan boxes, the box will no longer be highlighted and tagged.  Now when you select record and tagged parameters, the position will not record unless you select the position.

Hope that's helped.

[kgallen]

Cheers Peachy good call I’ll give that a go 👍

Kevin

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

Apologies for our slow response. 

Has Peachy's suggestion worked for you?

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi Edward. No I haven't. The FLX is at the venue now. It is Tech tomorrow I'll aim to give it a go. But what's your view on my initial observation? Thanks Kevin

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

I’ll take a look at this in further detail. As you say, if you have position parameters tagged, I would expect manually choosing to not record position in the Record Options window (Position with a blue stripe), would result in an ICBE effect palette, not ICBPE. With other palettes, only that specific attribute will be stored, unless SHIFT + RECORD is used to store all parameters into the palette.

For more information on tagging, such as the different colour attribute stripes, see below...

http://support.zero88.com/1014189311/What-is-Tagging.htm

All the best,

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi both,

On 6/6/2019 at 10:47 PM, Peachy001 said:

if you select all the fixtures, go into positions and tap on the blue highlighted tilt and pan boxes, the box will no longer be highlighted and tagged.  Now when you select record and tagged parameters, the position will not record unless you select the position.

 

On 6/8/2019 at 3:38 PM, Edward- Z88 said:

Has Peachy's suggestion worked for you?

I tried this on PhantomZOS, and no it didn't help. I tried a couple of ways: using CLEAR+POS (then save the palette), tapping Pan, Tilt, P/T Spd etc to unhighlight them (then save the palette). Both times recorded an Effect and it's type E (not ICBE). Also tried just holding RECORD (rather than SHIFT+RECORD), which comes up with I,C,B,E buttons red and P button blue -> looks promising -> but the palette saved is still just E. So do the above again to untag the Pos attribute and try SHIFT+RECORD again, to get the "snapshot" settings in the Record Options box, then go around again to make I,C,B,E red and P blue -> saved palette is still just E.

Looks broken to me unless you can tell me what I'm doing wrong... I was just reading that Tagging article that Edward pointed me at and it looks to me that I'm doing what it says there.

Thanks,

Kevin

I've attached my show file.

Under Effects there is a [46] Pyre (E) and [47] Pyre all (ICBPE). I wanted to get a "Pyre (ICBE)" effect that I could apply to any of the LEDs (fixtures 37-38,50-67) I choose at the time. Those Pyre effects were programmed using Group "All LEDs" and with the movers (fixtures 54-57) pointing where I could see them to set up the CBE element of what I want (based on the new Fire effect). I don't want the P stored as the movers would be elsewhere when I actually apply it.

I've had the same issue with the [51] Sea (E) and [52] Sea all (ICBPE) palettes - I want "Sea (ICBE)".

Anyway the show is programmed now, but I need to understand how to do what I want, or get you to fix the software. Probably this is not a problem limited to "Position"? May be that if I wanted a "CPE" palette (no "B") I wouldn't be able to get one???

AW80D_dress4.isf

[kgallen]

I'm through this show, but I have another production in a few weeks. Are we anywhere with triaging this report viz a fix?

Thanks!

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

OK. We haven’t logged this yet, however will post back with a reference number when we have. 

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi Edward,

Bump.

Did you ever get through investigating this? Seems pretty fundamental functionality that isn't working as expected!

Kevin

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

This can be done via syntax. 

For an ICBE effect palette, create your effect, tap RECORD -> EFFECT, choose the attributes you wish to include from the Record Options, applying a green filter, type the effect palette number you wish to store to, followed by ENTER to complete the command. 

Hope this helps, 

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi Edward. Ok thanks. What’s the difference here to what I’ve been doing - is that typing the Effect palette number rather than tapping the screen? So is this a workaround for a bug and is there a reference number? Thanks, Kevin

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

No reference number for this one currently.

When RECORD is pressed, and an empty palette button marked with an asterisk is touched, this automatically applies that attribute’s relevant filters.

However when RECORD is followed by the attribute key, the attribute filter is automatically applied in the record window, however then allows you to customise the attributes. If you were to press a palette button at this point, the usual rule is applied and only that relevant attribute is stored. Whereas if the palette number is typed, followed by enter, this stores your palette with your custom attribute filter. 

Hope this helps,

Edward

[Jon Hole]

I guess a way of thinking about this is “simple” (touch) and “advanced” (syntax) options.

Using Syntax, the Record Window gets given clues as to what you’re going to do (by typing COLOUR 1) before you do it (by pressing ENTER). This allows the record window to apply filters it believes to be suitable, and allows you to overrule them.

Using touch, everything happens in one go - there’s no opportunity for the user to overrule the standard filters.

It’s much more common that a user wishes to just record Colour, even though multiple parameters are tagged (or Smart Tag is enabled), so this feels like the best way, currently, of dealing with the situation.

[kgallen]

Sorry guys I'm not sure I can reconcile these new "explanations", this is a plain bug surely. Other users have reported similar issues/confusion in other threads, that I've linked to this one to see if there is a common problem. Jon (apologies if you have followed the thread but:)  - I'm recording an Effect palette. I can understand that if I was recording a Colour palette the desk would want to record just the colour attribute. Edward already confirmed early on that what I'm trying to do (which is not anything fancy) is reasonable and the desk should do as expected. Are you saying this is not the case and it's not a bug but some "unreasonable expectation" of what should happen given what the GUI is presenting as options?

I select the required attributes for recording on Record Options then I press OK. It's not doing what I ask regards which attributes to record. Why have these Record Option buttons if the desk doesn't follow what options are enabled? I don't see what syntax or touch has got to do with it - the information required in the palette is there selected by buttons on the Record Options form. As stated above, I even follow your KB "Tagging" article and the desk does not behave in the way the KB article says - they KB says it in plain English "These tagging options allow you during the Record process to choose which attributes to include:", "Under Attributes, you can then go in and choose which attributes to include or ignore. ", "You can choose to include an attribute by tapping the Attribute soft button to include it and it will go red.". Is palette recording not following this same schema?

Please be straight with us - if it's a bug, let's log it, fix it and move on, not dancing around some "legalese" language about "advanced" usage. If it's not a bug and expected behaviour then please clarify the KB and add it as an enhancement request so we can do it.

Thanks as always,

Kevin

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

This isn't a bug, however that isn't to say this behaviour shouldn't change.

For now, I have added this clarity into the knowledgebase article...

http://support.zero88.com/1014189311

Edward

[martin-144]

Kevin,

now you opened Pandora's box and have to live with the curse 🙂

Fortunately I haven't run in such kind of problems (yet), but this may be to come sooner or later.
I would like to have a clear definition how some feature works or not.

I think there should be ONE way to do programming a console, not defined by if you use touch or physical buttons.
And I have to admit that I have not fully understood the KB article, but I have to be in front of a console to have a try.

Martin

[kgallen]

OK chaps, I'm back here again with 7.9.7 on the FLX.

On 8/9/2019 at 6:24 PM, Edward- Z88 said:

Hi Kevin,

This can be done via syntax. 

For an ICBE effect palette, create your effect, tap RECORD -> EFFECT, choose the attributes you wish to include from the Record Options, type the effect palette number you wish to store to, followed by ENTER to complete the command. 

This still doesn't work for me, I still get just an 'E' palette. I want an EBP palette in this instance.

I have 4 movers up in the rig.

1. Select all 4 movers using the mouse from the Output Window and @40 just so I can see them.
2. Set Beamshape attributes as I want.
3. Set Position as I want for the "base position" for the effect.
4. Choose Effect Circle, and set the Size and Speed.

Press RECORD and hold it to get Record Options. Press EFFECT - this changes the Record Options to turn off SmartTag and Effect soft-button has the red bar (ok looks promising). I tap Beamshape soft-button and Position soft-button to get the red bar. Intensity and Colour have dark "off" bars.

I type 50, so the command line now says RECORD EFFECT 50. I press ENTER.

I get Effect palette 50 programmed and it's type E not type EBP as I want (and asked for).

I CLEAR-CLEAR. I select the 4 movers. I @40 so I can see them. I tap Effect Palette 50. I get the circle, but the Beamshape is not set (it's Home) and the base position is not set (they are dancing around their Home position).

On 8/10/2019 at 10:33 AM, Jon Hole said:

Using Syntax, the Record Window gets given clues as to what you’re going to do (by typing COLOUR 1) before you do it (by pressing ENTER). This allows the record window to apply filters it believes to be suitable, and allows you to overrule them. <-- Yep this is what I want, and the Record Options behaves like this. But the Palette contents does NOT reflect this!

Your syntax recipe doesn't seem to work for me. So what am I STILL doing wrong???

(I just reviewed the updated KB article linked above and other than it being an Effect palette rather than Colour as in the KB example, I’m doing what it says).

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

After pressing RECORD EFFECT, add the extra attributes by tapping them twice to give them a Green stripe. You can then type 50 ENTER to store in.

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi Edward,

1 minute ago, Edward- Z88 said:

After pressing RECORD EFFECT, add the extra attributes by tapping them twice to give them a Green stripe. You can then type 50 ENTER to store in.

Umm, ok, but why? The "extras" like Beamshape have just been adjusted by me, so they are tagged, so red stripe should be just fine. So why now the change of heart for a green stripe?

It's true that after tapping EFFECT, the Effect soft-button had a red stripe and the other ICBP were "off" so did the desk now think they weren't tagged attributes, so needs a green stripe to force the situation? (Desk is off now, I will have to try tomorrow night.)

Thanks, Kevin

[kgallen]

Hi Edward,

Thanks that finally worked, I've got myself a "Spell" effect setup. Not what one would call 'intuitive' though is is!

 

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

On 12/20/2019 at 9:25 AM, kgallen said:

Thanks that finally worked, I've got myself a "Spell" effect setup. Not what one would call 'intuitive' though is is!

Great, glad that’s worked and you’ve achieved what you’re after. As I’ve said definitely an area we want to improve.

Edward