new question about PAN and Tilt alignment

[van den abbeele Eric]

If I understood the manual, it is possible following a wrong mounting and misplacement on a bridge of some projectors, correct their positions to have a good adjustment.

This is done well at the Fixture?

That is to say apart from inverting the Pan and Tilt, we can change the position of the projector?

In fact, are the changes directly visible when we change the values ? Or we must going out setup window ?

The basic values being "50", I imagine that when we go to 49, 48, 47 etc. we will go in one direction and when we go to 51, 52, 53, etc. we go to another direction. ..?

Thanks for your help

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric,

In the Fixture Schedule, you have the ability to Swap Pan/Tilt parameters around per fixture, and you have the ability to Invert Pan/Tilt parameters per fixture. More information on this can be found here...

http://support.zero88.com/1011707101

As well as this, you have the option to change the position of the fixture's default values. This allows you to therefore choose where the fixtures are positioned if no Playbacks are running, and no information is in the Programmer. For information on how to do this, see the article below...

http://support.zero88.com/1011707631

Hope this helps, if you have any queries let me know.

Edward

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

I had indeed seen that it was possible to reverse the Pan and the Tilt.
But I have marked all my projectors, to install them in the same direction and so be sure to be correct vis-a-vis directions.

But what seems to me more interesting is when on fast installations, we must quickly intervene and that on a line of 6 SPOT several are not aligned.
In this case, rather than lowering the bridge, it is easier to change the settings on the Console ...
And the fact that the FLX can do this kind of thing, move the position of the projector in the fixture patches, it is a great advantage ...

 

Can you just tell me that when we want to calibrate the position of the lyre, how is it done? When are we on the settings of each fixture? This is it ?

 

 

Thank a lot for your différents helping. I know that we re several to ask you same questions... 

 

Take care 

 

Eric

[kgallen]

Hi Eric.

I don't think you can move the origin of a fixture by a few degrees, say, if it's misaligned on pan. If you can I would be interested to learn too since I have some 'cheap' fixtures who's home position pan/tilt is not exactly aligned (same make/model). So if I could apply a pan offset of one to a few degrees to the misaligned one that would be useful. As now that maligned fixture has to be adjusted separately. Position palettes if course help a lot but there is often a position or fan tha is not palette based!

 

Kevin

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

 

I See In the manual (page 42)

I will try this week if I Have time to do it...

 

Eric

 

 

FROM THE MANUAL 7.9.1

Edit Fixtures

Edit Fixtures is the third option in the Setup menu, and allows you to carry out various functions relating to the fixtures already assigned to the desk. Per fixture, you can adjust each of the following :

• -  Name and fixture number

• -  Default, Home and Topset parameter values

• -  Pan and Tilt alignments

• -  Various Patch functionality

 

The Default values for fixture parameters are the values that are output when the fixture is “released” (ie, notcurrently being used / controlled).

The initial values for all of these settings are taken from the Zero 88 fixture library. They are set to values that will produce an open white beam (no gobos or effects) at a central position (Pan and Tilt at 50%) but with an intensity of 0%.

These values can be edited on an individual fixture or group basis as required (as described on page 42 under “Edit Fixtures”).

[kgallen]

Yes but nothing there says you can define a ‘corrective offset’ which is what I think you’re after.

Having a modified home position does not adjust the absolute position programmed in a cue.

[Edward Z88]

Hi both,

A "Corrective Offset" for a Pan parameter is not currently possible on ZerOS. It's an interesting idea though. However it would only help you out one end of the Pan/Tilt range?

For example let's say to be aligned with my other fixtures fixture 2 has to have a 2 degree offset, which means the minimum the parameter can go to is a 16bit DMX value of 1000 (just a random figure!). If this offset was applied, at the other end of the range you would need 65535+1000 which can't be done, and so anything that is now above the maximum would be capped -2 degrees?

11 hours ago, kgallen said:

Position palettes if course help a lot but there is often a position or fan tha is not palette based!

Yep, another reason why palettes are get-out-of-jail free cards!

Edward

[kgallen]

Hi Edward,

3 hours ago, Edward- Z88 said:

A "Corrective Offset" for a Pan parameter is not currently possible on ZerOS. It's an interesting idea though. However it would only help you out one end of the Pan/Tilt range?

For example let's say to be aligned with my other fixtures fixture 2 has to have a 2 degree offset, which means the minimum the parameter can go to is a 16bit DMX value of 1000 (just a random figure!). If this offset was applied, at the other end of the range you would need 65535+1000 which can't be done, and so anything that is now above the maximum would be capped -2 degrees?

Yes, agreed, you'd run out of numbers one side or the other with a non-zero offset, that's implicit in having this ability. DMX-wise this is the addition of a positive or negative number ("the corrective offset") to the prospective DMX value then saturated (to 0 or 255 or 65535) to prevent under- or overflow of the 8- or 16-bit DMX value that is ultimately transmitted to the fixture. The harder bit is probably the UI definition to allow the user to get the "corrective offset". The user would want to select the fixture, dial the pan (or tilt) until the fixture was "aligned", and then capture the difference between the live and the "perfect" value (probably only have the home value available to use for this) to calculate that offset which gets stored against the fixture.

As ever, the devil will be in the detail because this "offset" would need to work properly when doing fan operations - although maybe that just comes out in the maths. I guess you already have saturation code anyway since when fanning, some fixtures may end-stop their DMX values whilst other fixtures still have travel. Again, as with fanning, when you come back the other way, the fixture has to "pick up" consistent with the fan position. I guess internally the software works on a higher bit width then "windows" down to the 8/16 bit DMX value that's transmitted. Anyway I digress and should stop waffling on about the software design...! Back to Eric's questions!

Thanks!

Kevin

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

32 minutes ago, kgallen said:

Yes, agreed, you'd run out of numbers one side or the other with a non-zero offset, that's implicit in having this ability. DMX-wise this is the addition of a positive or negative number ("the corrective offset") to the prospective DMX value then saturated (to 0 or 255 or 65535) to prevent under- or overflow of the 8- or 16-bit DMX value that is ultimately transmitted to the fixture. The harder bit is probably the UI definition to allow the user to get the "corrective offset". The user would want to select the fixture, dial the pan (or tilt) until the fixture was "aligned", and then capture the difference between the live and the "perfect" value (probably only have the home value available to use for this) to calculate that offset which gets stored against the fixture.

As ever, the devil will be in the detail because this "offset" would need to work properly when doing fan operations - although maybe that just comes out in the maths. I guess you already have saturation code anyway since when fanning, some fixtures may end-stop their DMX values whilst other fixtures still have travel. Again, as with fanning, when you come back the other way, the fixture has to "pick up" consistent with the fan position. 

This would all make more sense when dealing with degrees, rather than raw DMX. Which as you know is something on the road map.

30 minutes ago, kgallen said:

I guess internally the software works on a higher bit width then "windows" down to the 8/16 bit DMX value that's transmitted.

ZerOS deals with all parameters as if they were 16bit, which is then scaled down for those that are 8bit.

30 minutes ago, kgallen said:

Anyway I digress and should stop waffling on about the software design...! Back to Eric's questions!

Yes, sorry Eric!

All the best,

Edward

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello

 

In any case, several consoles allow a ground alignment (values 50% Tilt and 50% Pan) so that the projector is not perfectly in the middle and therefore in the vertical of its position, that a correction is possible without having to bring down a bridge, which on large assemblies with reduced time is sometimes not possible.
Thus the correction on the console saves the situation.

So I thought that the alignment that I described above allowed just to be able to put the alignment to the vertical of the projector, ....
So I do not understand the usefulness of this function "Pan and Tilt alignment" on Fixture Edit ... What is really for what?

Thank for your different answers

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric,

11 hours ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

n any case, several consoles allow a ground alignment (values 50% Tilt and 50% Pan) so that the projector is not perfectly in the middle and therefore in the vertical of its position, that a correction is possible without having to bring down a bridge, which on large assemblies with reduced time is sometimes not possible.
Thus the correction on the console saves the situation.

It can be done on ZerOS, however not by the method Kevin nor I were talking about. 

The way you can do it on ZerOS is updating the Default values for a fixture that is misaligned. This then allows you to select all your fixtures of this type, and control them as if they are all perfectly aligned. You would probably update your Home value to be in the default position too.

11 hours ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

So I thought that the alignment that I described above allowed just to be able to put the alignment to the vertical of the projector, ....
So I do not understand the usefulness of this function "Pan and Tilt alignment" on Fixture Edit ... What is really for what?

The articles I linked to in a previous post talk through these options. We refer to the "Invert" and "Swap" columns in the Fixture Schedule as "Alignment".

Inverting Tilt can be particularly useful if you’ve rigged Front of House fixtures the opposite way around to those onstage, or you have some fixtures sat on the floor. Inverting Pan can be particularly useful if you wish your rig to be symmetrical, so the beams move into and away from Centre Stage rather than all in the same direction. 

When swapping, any values defined for Pan will be output on the Tilt channel(s), and any values defined for Tilt will be output on the Pan channel(s) - useful for when a fixture is rigged on its side. 

Hope this helps, if you have any queries let me know.

Edward

[van den abbeele Eric]

thank you so much

Yes indeed in my case, it is the option to correct a position. Either 8 spots installed on the bridge, and 1 spot that is too advanced (radius ground in "home" position) and that to be properly positioned, it should go down the bridge. Except when there is no time ...

So if in fact in ZerOS, it is possible to correct this problem, so that the 8 spots are correctly aligned it can join the possibilities of other consoles type Chamsys, Avolites and GrandMa ...

So I'm going on my next edit, if time allows me to go in Fixture Edit and try to see what it's like to fix the right placement ...

Thank you

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

in fact I thought a lot about this alignment problem.

In the facts :
6 projector on a bridge. And two of them are not aligned with others.
1 OK 2 OK. 3Wrong. 4 OK. 5 OK 6 Wrong
As mentioned above on some console, this can be corrected to have 6 projectors when the values at 50%, the points of light are all in the right place. (Like Grandma ...)
1 OK 2 OK. 3 -2% tilt. 4 OK. 5 OK 6 + 1% Tilt
everything becomes OK

But in practice this implies that making a correction at the level of the tilt, when we go on the 6 projectors at + 50% or - 50%, the number 3 and 6 will have a more limited displacement in one direction and more important in the other direction. (Which is logical since the projectors are badly hooked)

So this implies either to limit the other projectors so that everyone is aligned or accept the fact that the end of races will not be identical for all.

But the advantage of such a correction at the level of ZERO OS and to be able to have in "home position" all the projectors aligned with each other and thus to have something clean.

 

 

 

Question 1 :

I see somewhere that we can use SETUP + Position (or Colour Or Beam, etc...) for coming different setting... Is it stil working on 7.9.4 ?

 

Question 2 :

"Edit Fixture" was also on 7.9.1, .... In 7.9.4, how can we find this different options ?

 

 

thank for your help

 

Eric

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric,

Home and Default values can now be configured on FLX S, which will solve this problem for you. For more information, see below...

http://support.zero88.com/1011411491

13 hours ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

Question 1 :

I see somewhere that we can use SETUP + Position (or Colour Or Beam, etc...) for coming different setting... Is it stil working on 7.9.4 ?

That's correct, SETUP + tapping an attribute button will open the Attribute Settings. You can also access this by tapping SETUP -> System Settings, and then tap any of the Attribute Settings buttons.

13 hours ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

Question 2 :

"Edit Fixture" was also on 7.9.1, .... In 7.9.4, how can we find this different options ?

Edit Fixtures is now simply the Fixture Schedule (tap SETUP to access this), with the ability to customise fixture data, including inverting and swapping for moving fixtures. More information can be found here...

http://support.zero88.com/1011707101

Configuring Defaults is now done outside of Setup. More information can be found here...

http://support.zero88.com/1011707631

Hope this helps,

Edward

[kgallen]

(Thread bump/slight tickle).

Just curious if the team had any further thoughts on Eric's (and my) issue and the subsequent enhancement suggestion for an in-desk pan/tilt "correction offset" for physically misaligned fixtures (due to poor hanging accuracy - Eric, or "cheap" fixtures with poor mechanical calibration - me). Simplistically, this boils down to a new column in the Fixture Schedule where a fixture can have a +/-(small DMX value) for Pan and/or Tilt that the desk adds to the programmed value prior to DMX output. The more complex aspect is the UI and some integration with maybe the Highlight feature to allow this offset to be determined by observing the fixtures on stage as they are tweaked with the encoder wheels.

In ETC Eos this is similar to "Hang to Focus" offset which can be applied in X, Y and Z planes.

Thanks!

Kevin

Unrelated I also came across another interesting feature, "Preheat", which is a bit like move on dark, and is used to preheat tungsten lamps at the cue before they transition above 0%. This would be of interest for me, as to mitigate thermal shock, particularly on a flash to @FUL I will try to program a preheat of a few % on pre-cues where the next cue will be a step-change bump to the lamp. Of course I already have my Betapacks set with appropriate preheat, but this is of course at a much lower level such that blackouts are still dark.

[Edward Z88]

Hi Kevin,

2 hours ago, kgallen said:

Just curious if the team had any further thoughts on Eric's (and my) issue and the subsequent enhancement suggestion for an in-desk pan/tilt "correction offset" for physically misaligned fixtures (due to poor hanging accuracy - Eric, or "cheap" fixtures with poor mechanical calibration - me).

Definitely an interesting feature to investigate. It would mean you could leave a default home position of 50% pan 50% tilt, and ensure your fixtures tilted upstage/down stage for example, even if they have been rigged with a slight offset. This is on the system as reference number ZOS-5911.

2 hours ago, kgallen said:

Unrelated I also came across another interesting feature, "Preheat", which is a bit like move on dark, and is used to preheat tungsten lamps at the cue before they transition above 0%. This would be of interest for me, as to mitigate thermal shock, particularly on a flash to @FUL I will try to program a preheat of a few % on pre-cues where the next cue will be a step-change bump to the lamp. Of course I already have my Betapacks set with appropriate preheat, but this is of course at a much lower level such that blackouts are still dark.

Certainly another interesting feature to investigate. For now, you would have to manually give your fixtures some low intensity, in the cue prior to snapping them on to full.

Edward