Not pleased...

[Mars]

I'm doing something ugly wrong, or cannot understand the philosophy of the designer, or there is a fundamental BUG.

Version 9.6

 

While programming a vast number of 9 scenes, checking the up/down times, noticed that something was very, very wrong: scene x respons with the times of scene x+1.

Or should I have programmed scene x-1 with the times of scene x. Or... eehh...

 

Transferring all these scenes (as a haphazard solution) to the subs... to the subs... TO THE SUBS... D..XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX...XXXXXXXXXXXX.

Is there dirt under the knobs of this desk? What os is this running?

Well, I think I've sledgehammered the scene's in the subs.

Show starts in half an hour. I'm in a perfect mood to run the show.

(two hours needed to program nine scenes, what a disaster)

 

Tomorrow, the technician of the day can choose between this funny device or the Sirius24, with (at least) visible up times, faultless blind edit and topset.

Fixtures? Yeah, next year or so.

I am not pleased, and consider a drastic measure.

I hope I'm doing something wrong, but I'm puzzled.

 

Aahh... there's the 5 minute sign.

[Jan Giezen]

Could it be that you're programming is just like your post on this forum? I can understand that the desk seems to act strange, maybe you can try to give a good explanation of the problems which you think that have may occured. (If English is not your strongest language to explain, try it in Dutch, there are some experienced users from the Netherlands on this forum)

:roll: :roll: :wink:

[Mars]

Potverpielekes, die Jan toch...

 

Just finished the show, checking out... yup, very, very odd. I'm sure I'm doing things wrong... or not.

Loaded version 9.2

Impeckable, apart from the yes/no disturbance, as posted else.

 

If my programming mirrors my postings, my consideration stands.

[Jan Giezen]

Mars,

correct me if I'm wrong ....

 

You programmed 9 scenes with OS 9.6 with, I think generics, using a fade up and down time. When running the scenes from stack it seemed that the scene uses the fade up and down time from scenenumber-1, or was it more from the previous selected scene ?

With OS 9.6 you where not able to transfer those scenes to submasters at all ?

 

With OS 9.2 everything works fine, just as you expected to do ?

 

Jan :roll: :roll: :wink:

[Mars]

No, from the scenenumber +1.

So scene (e.g.) 123 acts with times from scene 124, 124 with times from 125, &c.

Anyhow, not so in 9.2, which is running the show today, in all those 30+ scenes on the playbackX master, and times corresponds with scenes.

 

It is very labourous to get any scene (w/wo times) into the subs, version independend, as mentioned above.

It should be: select sub, transfer (w/wo), release. It is: retry, verify, retry, verify, retry, verify, &c, &c. until succeeded.

No, no, no, this is not as should be, but we're running a show, not a desk.

 

All right, let's replace it with an other fatfrog, and try (pudding & eating).

Contacts will turn up soon with the distributor.

 

Show starts in an hour. I'm in a better mood to run the show, done by someone else.

 

///////////////

 

All went well. Back next week.

[ice]

Had the same problem, it's not a bug just a quite illogical way of programmin I guess (in my case at least). The one thing you have to remember: the fade up/down times apply to THAT memory only. So fade-in is applied when going from x-1 to x, and fade down when going from x to x+1.

So when you want the scene combination to fade in a particular way you've got to edit the fade down of x-1 and the fade-up of x! I made that mistake a lot of times when programming, cause it seems to make more sense that fade fade up/down times on the "selected" line apply to the transition made on a press of the "GO" button. That's not the case.

Maybe you've got another problem but it sounds a lot like mine

 

Just finished a show with OS9.6 and I used the memories a lot (with fade times), worked perfectly fine for me!

[Paul]

See also the following topics for discussion on fade up/down times:

 

http://support.zero88.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=162

 

http://support.zero88.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=163

 

edit: fixed links

[K-Nine]

The way that the fade times are used when playing back memories on the playback X using the Go button has not changed since the first release of frog software.

 

The fade up and fade down times relate to the transition of the HTP channels when fading to the selected/next memory.

 

For example:

 

Memory 23, channels 1-6 @ 100%, channels 7-12 @ 0%, channels 13-18 @ 50%. Fade up = 3 seconds, fade down = 3 seconds.

 

Memory = 24, channels 1-6 @ 0%, channels 7-12 @ 80%, channels 13-18 @ 50%. Fade up = 5 seconds, fade down = 1 second.

 

Current memory = 23, so outputs = those stated for memory 23.

Next memory = 24, Press the GO button.

 

Channels 1-6: go from 100% to 0% in 1 second

Channels 7-12: go from 0% to 80% in 5 seconds

Channels 13-18: remain at 50%.

 

To put it in general terms:

 

If a channel is going from a higher value to a lower value it will do so in the Fade Down time of the incoming memory.

 

If a channel is going from a lower value to a higher value it will do so in the Fade Up time of the incoming memory.

 

Hope that makes things clearer

[Mars]

FrogTime, a better understanding.

 

Manual 2:

Manual 4C:

Manual 5Ca:

Manual 6C:

p 4.2

The fade times and actions define the transition from the current memory to the incoming memory.

p 4.3

Fade Up - the fade up time for the Next memory.

Fade Down - the fade down time for the Next memory.

Interpretation: The Fade Up Time and Fade Down Time belong to the next ('incoming') memory.

 

Software version 7.5 (*)

Software version 8.1 (*)

Software version 9.0 (*)

Software version 9.6 (*)

Software Frog Offline 1.0

Programming:

Fade Up : the fade up time for the next memory.

Fade Down: the fade down time for the current memory.

Execution:

The Fade Up Time determines the next memory.

The Fade Down Time determines the current memory.

 

If:

"The fade times and actions define the transition from the current memory to the incoming memory."

How is the fade down time of the first memory (Memory 1) to be defined? Memory 0 is not editable...

It is defined on the last programmed memory fade down time. Wrapping Cues.

 

Best option:

Let the user define up/down times vs. current/next memory.

Good option:

Give the user some (2/3) selectable settings for times and memories.

Acceptable option:

Rewrite the definition of the fade down time on page 4.3 of the manual.

(it says 'Next', but should be 'Current')

Disappointing option:

Leave it unmodified.

 

(*)

Not tested due to a running show for a long period.

 

Conclusion:

The frog was jumped out of it's skin. I really can be foaming cantankerously.

I bury the tomahawk for a while and have a long holliday first.

[richard]

At the moment neither of the explanations are very clear. I would phrase it as:

 

The fade up/down times entered will be used on the run-in to the selected memory (so the down time will be the time taken fo the previous cue to disappear).

 

The current frog usage is the industry standard, so it would be stupid to change it, one of the big complaints I hear of the old Sirius 24/48s was that the times were so odd.

[K-Nine]

The current frog usage is the industry standard, so it would be stupid to change it, one of the big complaints I hear of the old Sirius 24/48s was that the times were so odd.

 

Precisely, some people did have problems with the way we had fade up/down or fade in/out times on the Sirius 250/500 so we deliberately changed them when we designed the Illusion 120/240. There were no major problems reported re fade times so we continued the fade time philosophy onto the Frog Series and the Illusion 500 desks.

 

It is much simpler to have the definition of the transition to the state of a cue/memory stored in the one memory.

 

I agree that it could be made clearer in the manuals, but I have attempted to explain it in more detail in other posts in these forums ... it's really not that difficult to follow ...

 

Fade Up - relates to HTP channels going from a lower to a higher level.

 

Fade Down - relates to HTP channels going from a higher to a lower level.

 

LTP Fade relates to the transition to the new value of the LTP parameter (colour, movement, position). LTP action can be set to snap or fade, where it uses the LTP fade time.

 

If you think that's complex, then compare it to the following times that are defined for the Illusion 500:

 

Delay Up, Fade Up,

Delay Down, Fade Down,

Colour Delay, Colour Transition

Beam Delay, Beam Transition

Position Delay, Position Transition

 

.... and in future products it may even be possible to define individual delay/fade times for each individual fixture parameter 8O

[NZ]

Just goes to show we can't please all of the people all of the time! :evil:

 

Some people like the times for a memory to be in the memory, some like the fade out time to be in the next memory. I don't really mind which one it is as long as it is consistent.

 

Graham

[Ian_p]

I must admit, I have been puzzled by this, and so far I have not used memories, just submasters because of this!

 

One thing which would be a great help, can you draw a diagram / graph of how a memory fades into the next one and which fade up / down is associated with which memory?

 

I am very visual, I have read the manual many times on this point, and it is no clearer.

 

Thanks!

[NZ]

You have a fade up time for a memory and a fade down time. Assume you have programmed Q1 at 5 sec up 7 sec down and Q2 at 4 Sec up 4 sec down. When you hit the go button to do the transition to Q2 the lights affected by Q2 will fade up over 4 sec's and any levels outputting in Q1 that have had their values reduced will fade down over 4 secs. On our old desks the fade down would have been the 7secs in Q1.

 

The best way to understand this is program a couple of cues with say Ch1 to 10 at Full in Q1 and Channel 11 to 20 at full in Q2 and Channel 1 to 10 at 0 in Q2. Program a fade up time of 7 secs in Q2 and a fade down time of 0. When you do the transition you will see CHannel 1 to 10 snap to black and Ch11 to 20 fade up over 7 secs. You can see that the times in Q1 have no impact on this transition.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Graham

[K-Nine]

If I figure out an easy way of doing a diagram/graph and putting it in a post, I will

 

In the mean time here is another example which may help:

 

Cue 1: channels 1-30 all @ 50%

Cue 2: channels 1-10 @ 0%, channels 11-20 @ 50 %, channels 21-30 @ 100%. fade up = 5 seconds, fade down = 2 seconds.

 

The desk is currently outputting cue 1 (chans 1-30 @ 50%).

Cue 2 is the next cue (memory).

Press the Go button.

The fade times for all channels which are changing value are determined by the times of the incoming cue (ie cue 2), therefore:

 

Channels 1-10 are going from 50% - 0% so they fade from 50 - 0 in 2 seconds.

 

Channels 11-20 are going from 50% - 50% so they remain static @ 50%.

 

Channels 21-30 are going from 50% - 100% so they fade from 50 - 100 in 5 seconds.

[Paul]

... or buy an Illusion, then you can look at it all graphically on the cueline screen, and not get horribly confused by wordy posts which you'd have to draw a picture of to understand anyhow :wink:

[K-Nine]

... and before anybody asks .. we will NOT be putting Cueline on the Frog series because:

 

1. The frog monitor screens are simple text based screens, not graphical screens like on the Illusion.

 

2. The cueline is designed to be used with a mouse which the frogs do not have.

 

3. We are far too busy working on Frog 2 :wink:

[Mars]

Right, we leave the memory issue. I've 'placed' a large piece of gaffa with some remarks on it just right of the display. It looks ugly, but it works.

 

But these submasters...

Now this show consists of (hold your breath) eight scenes, programmed (...) in the memory stack, and transferred (no time) to submaster 1 to 8 on page 1 (dubble checked after the extensive programming session with the extremely demanding director).

The next day (I was off duty), subs 1, 6,7 an 8 were gone. Just plainly wiped. The tech checked the subs just after firing the desk, and noticed it at once. A bit frantic, he ran the show from the presets. Great...

 

Of course, I checked it the next day: indeed gone. REtransferred (no time) again: ok. Powered the desk off & on: ok. Going to recheck it soon again.

 

No clue, but unreliable nevertheless; counts two.