Solution - Solution XL VS FLX - FLX S 48

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

I am Eric (France) and I come back to this forum to clarify my choices.

I currently have a Jester 24/48 so I'm happy and working with a LANBOX + Apple computer.

this solution Lanbox + computer begins to be unreliable. And I look towards 4 directions ... Purchase for April / May / June ...

Solution

or 

solution XL
or
FLX + wings
Or
FLX S 48 + wings

Material in use:
- Traditional dimmers (PAR / PC ) between mini 24 circuits max 300 DMX circuits.

- "PAR LED" 100 to 250 DMX circuits

- Automatic Lyre 100 to 200 DMX circuits.

Type of show: Theater with driving 1, 2, 3, etc ... which follows a music with precise top.
More rarely need to send live ...

Difficulties: Work with dance associations that rent in a very short time venues. So the encoding must be done quickly and with ease!

My questions.

When I look at the videos as the specifications, the different products all seem interesting and have big advantages.
The prices (Solutions XL and FLX + wings on one side and FLX S 48 + wings and Solution on the other) seem close ...

There are more videos about FLX and FLX S solutions and not much about XL solutions and solutions ...

So I need your help ...

What is the most logical for the traditional mix and Automatic / Led?
What encodes the easiest?

And if I understand correctly the OS is the same for both consoles? (solutions and FLX)

Thank you for your help,

Eric VDA

 

Last question : I have some low cost projecteur (Stairville, Cameo and Electroconcept) and I think that this fixture will be not on Desk OS. Can I send you MAP for creating fixture ? 

[kgallen]

FLX any day of the week. From user comments on this forum Solution appears to be running out of processing power with the more recent firmware. It's the oldest platform still in the current range.

For FLX S you would need to confirm these can support your fixture count/DMX address range. I suspect you'd be looking at the S48 rather than S24 (you do already suggest this in your OP).

I think you would only consider a Solution if you wanted the large panel user interface. But then you have to carry the thing. If you really need to-hand access to faders, then the FLX+Wing would seem to be the way to go, expanding as you needed.

FLX has development life - it's on the "up" curve, Solution is on the tail of it's life (I suspect, I don't work for Zero88).

Solution seems pretty much as expensive as FLX (don't look at the web prices, get a proper quote) - it's a physically bigger machine to manufacture (more faders, LCDs etc) rather than a "more powerful" machine.

I came to FLX from Fat Frog, motivated by the size/weight reduction for humping the thing around and the persistent introduction of LED fixtures to the rig - but actually still retaining a large conventionals base too. Your requirements are diverse enough that I think FLX is the most appropriate platform from this range to give you scope and longevity. And to save your back.

...Just one user's brash comments: YMMV!

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric,

All of the consoles you listed run ZerOS, so all operate in a similar way. Don't forget you can download Phantom ZerOS, to try out these consoles on your PC...

http://zero88.com/forum/files/file/17-zeros-794/

From your description however, it sounds like FLX would be the ideal console choice...

http://zero88.com/products/consoles/flx/index.shtml

If you then require more hands on faders, you can add up to 6 ZerOS WINGs...

http://zero88.com/products/consoles/wing/index.shtml

FLX S48 consoles can control a maximum of 96 fixtures. WINGs will not expand this fixture limit, purely give you more hands on faders.

If your required fixtures aren't included in our latest Fixture Library (version 35), send us an email to FixtureSupport@zero88.com, and one of the team will be able to make it for you. A list of available fixtures can be found here...

http://support.zero88.com/975072641

Hope that helps, any queries let me know.

Edward

[kgallen]

1 hour ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

Question : I have some low cost projecteur (Stairville, Cameo and Electroconcept) and I think that this fixture will be not on Desk OS. Can I send you MAP for creating fixture ? 

Have you checked the latest fixture library for your exact models? or:

- write your own with the Fixture Editor tools (I always do)

- ask Jon/Ed to write the fixture definition - send a link to the manual and say which modes you want.

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello

Thank you for your answers.

Indeed on the side of the controls, I need to have faders for direct access, and encoding (that's why I was looking at Solution and Solution XL)
Example on dance competitions, the rehearsal time of each choregraphy is short. So I have to be quick to program!

But on the other hand, if leaves the Lanbox, it is for a reason of lack of power. For the traditional with 150/200 DMX circuits things were going well. But with LED / Automatic and 300/350/400 DMX Circuits it was gone!

Question:
If ZerOS is on Solution and FLX, does that mean that the menus and possibilities will be the same?

FLX is more powerful than Solution?

How many Wings maximum on FLX?

It's sure that I thought I had to go deep inside myself that I had to go on either FLX + wing or Solutions XL ....

Simply in case I have to rent equipment, I have less limits with two consoles more powerful.

I do not have a PC but 1 mac so hard to try the ZerOS. But I will still see if in my knowledge nobody can lend me a PC 1 Week end.
It's for the same reasons that I can not edit fixtures, because for that you need a PC that I have never used in my life. Have been for 35 years on Apple. (No one is perfect ... hey hey)

Thank you for your help and listen to you!

Eric

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric, 

As Solution and FLX run ZerOS, although they have different hardware, their functionality is very similar. As Kevin referred to, Solution has been around for a while, whereas FLX is only 3 years old this year. FLX has a much more powerful processor, future proofing the console for software advancements. FLX does have the ability to be upgraded to output 8 Universes of DMX, whereas Solution is limited to 4. FLX also doesn’t have a fixture limit, whereas Solution/ Solution XL are limited to 248 & 296 fixtures respectively. 

6 ZerOS WINGs can be connected to FLX. There are 5 USB ports, so for 6 simultaneously you would need a powered USB hub. 

Hope that helps,

Edward

[kgallen]

4 hours ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

Indeed on the side of the controls, I need to have faders for direct access, and encoding (that's why I was looking at Solution and Solution XL)
Example on dance competitions, the rehearsal time of each choregraphy is short. So I have to be quick to program!

You don't need faders - in fact that's the last thing you need. You need to set up some Groups, Palettes and Playbacks with the sort of stuff you will need for the show. You can do this away from the venue. Then when you're at the rehearsal you can update your position palettes for the exact mover position then you go Group, Palette, Record - bang, bang, bang on the FLX touchscreen, you're done. None of this shoving faders about then hunting for colours and gobos around the Solution buttons.

FLX has 10 pages of 24 playback faders, which you can overlay - do you really need 24 playbacks from a pick of 240 under your fingers at once? You need to donate your brain to science if you can manage that lot. If you want more faders to call up stuff quickly whilst you're busking then add a wing.

 

Well that's how Ed and Jon would do it anyway - it's all beyond me at my age!

[Peachy001]

Hi Eric,

As someone who's just moved from a Solution to a FLX, I've found the following.

The Solution feels like ZerOS has been shoe horned to fit the old leap frog layout, where the FLX has been designed around the ZerOS system.

There are a number of functions already not available on the Solution for example the multi point colour picker across fixtures.  This will only increase as new developments are released, such as easier control of subfixtures and the splitting down of beams and shapes.

The older architecture inside the Solution does lag when pushed, we haven't had this issue with the FLX.  Saying that I do miss the screens for virtual labelling on the playbacks on the Solution and the ability to create your own layouts on desktops.  Saying this the FLX wins hands down, more MFFs (multi functional faders) and easy to use, very happy with our purchase.

I hope this is of some  help.

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

 

the answers help me well ... And FLX looks to be the best ...

Kgallen.
In fact for dance, I have on each side of the scene:
By slide:
1 floor projector (About 8 to 10 projecteurs)
2 or 3 side projectors on feet ( About 16 to 24, traditional and LED)
And at the end of harrow sideways very high. (About 8 to 10)

Then on the harrows.
I have PAR LED rows and lines that allow me to design rows, rows and diagonals on the ground. (About 24 to 36 Leds)

And some feww automatic...

 

 

So teachers / choreographers can ask me for any projector of any slide or group of projectors and having the things in question at hand allows me to go faster indeed.

So on the LANBOX I had the drawings of the scene on my screen and I could with a click have any projector or group in 1 second.
I know that it will not be possible for me anymore.
But having several faders to launch projectors is a saving of time in encoding.

Then of course all this show serves me more than anything since I will run the effects one after the other.
In general between 150 to 300 effects that follow on the driving ...

Anyway going to a new environment I know that I will have to change habits and create new work automatism.
With the LAnbox I prepared everything at home projector on the screen, subgroups, and fixtures. So I just had to encode once in the theater.
With FLX I would do the same thing, a preparatory work at home ...

Thank you for your help and advice that I value!

I will try in the coming days the soft ... And especially read the user manual to understand the operation of the FLX.

Question: Are there FLX users in France?
Because I seek to be able to speak with someone who already uses it ....

Thank you again for your help...

Eric

[kgallen]

On 3/29/2018 at 7:28 PM, van den abbeele Eric said:

So teachers / choreographers can ask me for any projector of any slide or group of projectors and having the things in question at hand allows me to go faster indeed.

Hi Eric,

I understand and I can agree with you if the controlled fixture has a single controllable parameter, like intensity, then I can understand, as we all operated for many tens of years, that you grab the fader and the light comes on. But fixtures are not so simple any more. They have intensity, colour, beamshape, position etc etc, several, to many tens of parameters. This can't be handled on a fader, another workflow is needed. Of cource, if one fixture needs to be selected, then of course FLX can do that - indeed the faders are by default channel intensity faders, and pages of such - and with wings then under the fingers. However this approach gives you control of the intensity parameter only. Most of your rig looks to be multi-parameter kit - you list more LED sources than possible conventional. The quantity you list looks uncomfortably large for any fader-per-channel based work surface, whether that be Zero88, ETC, Strand etc etc.

It sounds to me like you should go and try a number of lighting desks, or even get a demo. For Solution and FLX for example, you could attend one of the training courses, that might be a good approach to look at the Zero88 offerings for real. In addition, get a knowledgeable supplier or user to demonstrate each desk with a range of fixtures that model elements of your typical setup.

Zero88 appear  to have a fairly sizable French and German following, many experienced and knowledgeable members post on the forums here, especially the FLX and Solution forums. Take a browse and make some contact and get the real user experience from them!

Good luck, it's a big decision!

Kevin

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

Thank you Kevin for your answer.

In the first place that's why I asked the question of whether there were users of FLX in France to Edward, because it seems to me to be able to see in real what it gives.

Then I think and imagine that the FLX with its numeric keypad should allow me to call a particular projector Or group of projector to allow me to access it quickly ... and if it is indeed it is LED that I can access the parameters ... (7 or 8 channels)

When to automatic lyres, I do not think I would go beyond a dozen machines.

So having 1 or more Flying Fader can allow me to still have under hand more projectors to be able to work faster ...

But indeed it is certain that Solution XL will offer me 96 fader + 36 subgroups at no extra cost, but with older processors.
On the other hand by going on the FLX + 1 flying Fader, I will have less access, but I can later add flying fader if the need is felt ...

Thank you for the time you take to answer me. It's really cool !

There I download the user manual, so I'll already be able to see things and see the menus.

thank you

Eric

[kgallen]

Hi Eric. Just to clarify one point suggested by your text - none of the Zero88 consoles have motorised faders. I’m not sure if this was what you meant by ‘flying faders’. 

Kevin

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello

 

Yes excuse me, I did error in my syntax. I speak about Wing and not about Moving fader. You re right ! 

But I ve so dyslexic problems...

So It was clear in my head about FLX and Wings extensions !

 

Take care,

 

eric

 

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello

 

So a friend give me for few days a PC laptop. And I try to install the Zero OS ... 

I have a question, about installation, I try to do it and it's telling me that it will erase the disk... That is mean that this software must have a special disk without other software or documents ?

Thank for your help

 

Eric

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric,

If you are receiving that message that means you are running the ZerOS 7.9.4 OS USB Creator software. This software is used to format and create a bootable USB stick, which was the old way to perform software updates. 

For Phantom ZerOS, you’ll need the dedicated Phantom ZerOS 7.9.4 software also available from the download here...

zero88.com/forum/files/file/17-zeros-794/

This software allows you to choose which ZerOS console to emulate.

Hope that helps, any queries let me know.

Edward

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello Edward,

 

thank a lot for your help ! I will try in 2 or 3 days...

 

Do you think that ZerOS will exist an Mac OS ? 

I dont have facilities on PC/Window. (In Mac OS since 1993)

 

Other question :

When we sending manuel with Map to the fixture support, how is it working ?

Fixture creation takes a long time ?

New fixture are only available with futur update ?

 

 

Thank for your help and answers.

 

Have a nice day,

 

Salutation from France !

 

Eric VDA

 

[Jon Hole]

1 hour ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

Do you think that ZerOS will exist an Mac OS ? 

There's no current plan, but we do receive this every so often. I'm a macOS user too, and have had some success in the past with WineBottler, however I haven't used it recently. As usual, you need to ensure you're happy to install this third party ofter first - WineBottler isn't affiliated to Eaton in any way.

1 hour ago, van den abbeele Eric said:

When we sending manuel with Map to the fixture support, how is it working ?

Fixture creation takes a long time ?

New fixture are only available with futur update ?

Updates to the  Fixture Library are released regularly. If you find a fixture not included, there is PC software available to make your own or you can email FixtureSupport@Zero88.com - we usually reply within a day or two, but that's dependant on how many requests we receive, so that time frame isn't guarenteed!

[van den abbeele Eric]

thank 

[van den abbeele Eric]

thanks a lot Jon.

 

If I can buy a FLX in a while, and my learning is at best, I could make videos of presentation in French to appeal to the light technicians who can not go on Grand Ma or other big consoles to go on the alternative that you propose at Zero88.

 

So I Download Winebottle I will test ZerOS as soon as possible ... Thank !

 

Take care and have a good week

 

Eric 

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello,

Some questions... FLX
(I did not find the answers in the manual or not sure to have understand...)

1 /
In the shows I do, artists often do not come in the same order in repetition and show.

So my normal working is in theater mode, i.e. effect 1, 2, 3, 4, etc ...

When I'm going to record the cues with the double playback button (equivalent to a GO) how should I proceed?

Can I assign numbers as I 've during repetitions?
Example at rehearsal groupe 1 at 14H00: cues 50, 51, 52, 53
Then at rehearsal Dancer 3 at 14H30 : Cue 35, 36, 37, 38,
etc ...

So at 15H00 before coming next group, I will have recording 35, 36, 37, 38, 50, 51, 52, 53
Or is it impossible?

Or should I record empty cues, and make updates when the artists are there?

In normal show I Have about 150 to 250 cues

2 /
Insertion of cues?
For example on the jester I have the CUE 1, 2, 3, etc ... And when I want to insert something, I have 1, then "1.5", 2, 3 ...
Is it possible on the FLX ?

3 /
Moving a cue somewhere ? Possible? exemple from playback 3 to Playback 18... ?

4 /
The Update cue function is good for updating the settings of all the projectors that go from the cues and also to add projectors that I had not used before?

5 / Wings Faders :
The addition of Wings allows to increase the playback number?
Does this also allow

6 /
I have a CUE that interests me to copy ... Can I copy it from one playback to another, or from a playback to the double playback button?

 

 

7/

For touch monitor, do you have list of compatible monitors ?

 

Thank a lot for your help...

 

PS : Do you think that you will post some other video to help new FLX owner...

- for explain how to attribute to Chanel fader, the différents single dimmer and also all different fixture setting...

- also how to use Wings fader and the advantage to have wings fader...

- Also the effect possibility ? (Exemple for the Chamsys Magic Q, there is some exemple of effect possibly and we see that there is many option...)

[Edward Z88]

Hello,

In response to your FLX questions:

1/ 

You can record cues in whatever order you want. On all ZerOS consoles (FLX, FLX S, Solution etc) there is a maximum cue count of 10,000, so as long as you are recording within this range you will be fine. 

Regarding programming in a random order, you could also consider programming each rehearsal group as a separate Playback fader, as each playback can contain multiple cues. Or you can add in “Next” cues into cue 53 in your example, that will jump you back to cue 35 automatically. 

You are also able to record empty cues and give them names if you wish to visually indicate what you need to record, and then update them at a later date. 

2/

You can record on FLX to 2 decimal places, therefore you can actually have 99 cues between 2 whole cue numbers. There is no Insert button like there is on Jester, as you just type the cue number you want after tapping record. For example typing RECORD 1.5 tap Master Playbacks button, will store your cue as 1.5 onto the master playback. 

3/

You can copy playbacks, and also copy cues. When copying cues you can copy them to a new location in the Playback, or copy them to a cue in a different playback. 

4/

Updating cues is very easy on FLX, as after updating a cue the values are automatically grabbed into the cue, so you don’t need to clear the programmer- useful for on the fly updates. FLX is as standard a Tracking console, which means updating a cue can automatically update subsequent cues for you if needs be. 

5/

Addition of Wings does not increase Playback count- this is still limited to 240 plus the master playback (241). However with a maximum of 6 Wings connected via a USB hub, it gives you hands on access to extra channels or playbacks, reducing the need to change pages in a large show. 

6/

As point 3, you can copy cues around to whatever playback you want. 

7/

For a list of compatible touch screens, see below...

http://support.zero88.com/975056031

We do have an ongoing list of potential training videos, that are in the pipeline to be made in the future. 

Regarding possible effects, FLX consoles have 32 in-built effects, plus the ability to apply custom effects to each parameter per fixture. The video below shows you the ability to offset these effects...

Hope that helps, any queries let me know. 

Edward

[van den abbeele Eric]

Thank a lot Edward

So I ve money for buying a FLX.

I will order next week and wish to receive week after...

 

So I will come again for other question later.

 

Take care, and good week end !

[Edward Z88]

Hi Eric,

No worries, pleased to hear you’re going to go ahead and choose FLX! As always if you have any queries let us know. 

Edward

[van den abbeele Eric]

Thank a lot Edward

So I ve money for buying a FLX.

I will order next week and wish to receive week after...

 

So I will come again for other question later.

 

Take care, and good week end !

[van den abbeele Eric]

Hello

Some additional questions ...

1 /
Being in a theater scene configuration.
I will be with designers on the ground, 4 to 6 PAR LEDs on each side.

Designers at the height of man (Lateraux) between 8 to 12 PAR LED on each side behind the scenes.

Then on the harrows:
24 to 36 PAR LED
Some automatics (5 to 10 lyres)

The face with some PCs (Dimmers)

I'm going to do groups by families and places on stage ... But to be able to access several projectors, is there a quick way to get there? Example on 5 projector on the floor I want to select 1, 3 and 5 on one side and 2 and 4 on the other?

2 /
If I understand the side of the fader I can either have playback, or have control on some projectors ... So if I have 24 fader wings and more, I can on the FLX have for example the playbacks and on the wings outside access to the porjectors for their controls?

3 /
Can I on the 24 faders decide which fader controls which channel or fixture of a projector?

4 /
If I am in Theater mode and playback with the double button, can I always have faders between playback and chanels / fixture?

5 /
I can add 5 Wings Fader giving a total of 144 faders ...?

6 /
Do you have FLX users in France ... Towards the Great East ... (Metz, Strasbourg, Thionville, Nancy?

7 /
to patch in DMX the FLX with projectors and dimmers, is there a particular order?

8 /
DMX patch in one of the places where I go they have about 350 dimmers. But all according to the shows are not used. Then I leave free DMX numbers (unused dimmer ...)

9 /
On the side of connected projectors is there a maximum? (in the limit of 2 DMX universes and 2 Art Net universes)
Because as mentioned above I can have several tens of projectors on a scene ... And I must be able to find me easily ...

Thanks for your help.

Eric