Frogs and the Future ?

[ice]

You're absolutely right; but those are hardware restrictions, not software! So depending on the hardware, and the way you'll implement the layout etc, of course there are such limitation, all consoles have to deal with those kind of things.

I just wanted to point out the importance of working in a virtual way, and not some hardcoded edges you might run into. You'll always notice that whenever a software restriction is build in, which has nothing to do with the possible incapability of hardware, users will complain about this.

Software is a powerfull thing, so lets not bind it to rules too much!

 

Oh and another thing; please don't split the range up again. There are times I wish I had a Bull Frog, sometimes a Mambo... and many times our Leap runs perfectly. Just stick all the effort into one console which has all features. Things like the number of channels / number of fixtures shouldn't be a reason to make different consoles I think.

 

What's the market segment you're aiming at at this point of development? When the desk is gonna be competing with some "larger" desks you should look after the possibilities of ethernet, multiple DMX universes, those kind of things. 512 channels is a rather small value for a "real" console, 1024 is quite a bit but still... I'm ambitious

[Kirkup_xp]

To clarify the idea (now I have a bit more time) - basically what I want on a fader is LTP fading (from previous to the content of the new fader) which instead of being triggered and having a fade time, follows the fader... just thought I should make it a bit clearer as when I read it back through it didn't make much sense to me.

 

Any chance of knowing what else is being considered on Frog II?

[Kirkup_xp]

Another thought i've had. If you go for the 'definable faders' idea, then perhaps a little multicoloured LED for each fader, which changes colour to tell you what job its doing - off the top of my head

Red - Channel

Yellow - Submaster

Green - Cue

etc.

[ice]

Not too many leds 'n stuff; that doesn't work... integrate a decent screen into the desk live the avo's, hogs and MAs have; and use it properly.

A fader should be somekind of assignable; as Kirkup_xp mentioned; maybe a HTP/LTP mode per fader is something to consider?

 

K-Nine; is this going to be like it is now? Us shouting all kinds of requests and waiting for the console to come out? Or were you planning to release some plans for the new desk so we can comment things?

I guess a company always wants to keep such things to their own, but there must be some kind of compromise between the two?

[Yves]

I also think that screens above the subs is better than leds. it can give you a lot more information I guess.

 

I don't think they are going to reveal the entire plan for the new desk.

maybe they could provide us with a list of features (or possible features)so we can comment further on those points.

[ice]

Oh another one: stage positioning of the fixtures. Maybe not as detailed as on grandMA, WH etc, but somekind of positioning system. What I mean; I group my fixtures by type (ie macs-scans-etc) but that sucks when you want to use pan-fanning to create nice positions.

There should be some way to tell the deks that fixute #4 is most left, fixture #1 is in the middle and fixture #28 is on the right so the fanning works the way u want to. Of course such a feature must be toggled by the user; guess you don't always want this behaviour.

[K-Nine]

Now if we told you all the features, firstly we'd take all the fun and surprise out of the product launch, and secondly we'd spend all our time on the forum arguing about what's in and whats not, and never get it finished!

 

Besides, it's more interesting to sit back and let the users discuss what they want on the desk, rather than try and steer the debate too heavily ourselves :wink:

[Yves]

maybe you can create a separate show designer, so you can set the positions of the fixtures on a computer and then load them into the desk.

that way you can easely set up the fixtures and position and maybe create a whole show @ home

[ice]

Let's stick to the console first, okay? 8)

The idea of a showdesigner is cool, but there's a lot of stuff on the market already filling that task; just take a look around. There should be no effort put in such a thing until a decent console arises. Buy WYSIWYG and get a DMX node to read out your dmx line... good programming (just a little bit expensive)

 

Besides, it's more interesting to sit back and let the users discuss what they want on the desk, rather than try and steer the debate too heavily ourselves :wink:

 

very good point there

[Pipo]

firstly we'd take all the fun and surprise out of the product launch

 

When is the launch?????

[Yves]

if they tell us that, it isn't a suprise anymore :twisted:

[ice]

Designers crap... meaning; they haven't got duck yet

[Yves]

maybe the possibility to add separate wings with subs or SX buttons. because if I do bigger shows with different fixtures I don't have enough SX buttons to assign each color, gobo etc. onto a button. Then you don't have to buy a really big desk, you could just add an extra wing of SX or subs.

and the people of Zero don't have to make a range of different desks like you got now, you just produce a standard one and if that isn't big enough you can add whatever you like

 

Designers crap... meaning; they haven't got duck yet

I hope they've got something at the moment, otherwise we have to wait a really long time i guess :cry:

[K-Nine]

Designers crap... meaning; they haven't got duck yet

 

Ice - On what basis or evidence do you make this statement ?

 

Having worked on the Frog Series of desks from it's initial specification in June 2000 to the latest software releases earlier this year, I am fully aware of the amount of work that is required to develop a series of lighting desks, in terms of hardware, electronics and software 8O

 

From the original frog/fat frog desks we have added the leap frog, bull frog, mambo frog, frog box and frog screen to the range, as well as significant improvements and updates to the functionality that the desks provide compared to the original spec.

 

I am not at liberty to post details on the development of the 'Frog 2' desk.

 

I am sure Graham (NZ) will post whatever information he feels appropriate at this time, and I think he has already hinted at some of the features that the new desk is likely to have - see earlier in this topic.

[NZ]

We certainly have more than Crap at the moment!

 

Do we have all the features we want right at the moment? No

 

Do we have a lot of the things being asked for? Yes.

 

Will it suite everyone? No

 

Are we launching a product that will be completely finished? No it will be like the existing Frog Range and will be constantly developed over the next 2 years. A large part of this will depend on user feedback.

 

Are there constraints on the desk, yes but nothing like with Frogs.

 

Who is it aimed at? It would be easy to say Pearl users, or Hog Users or Sirius users or..... It will appeal to some users from all these segments and also some users of Strand 500s, Expressions etc. It will really depend on what you want to do and the type of show that you are doing. Like any lighting desk people who use it regularly and learn all the features will find it more useful than people who use it occassionally. As an example how many of you in the past month have learn't things on this forum about existing Frog that you didn't know? Frog II will have even more features so will take even longer to learn. I beleive that you should be able to do most medium size shows on this desk. What is medium? 40 to 60 moving heads and a bunch of pars. You could probably do more but it would then really depend on how well you knew the desk.

 

To finish who it is aimed at I would say if the following features appeal to you it will have something in it for you:

Keypad entry

Lots of palettes

Effects

User definable faders

user definable buttons

Touch screen

Monitors

Multiple playback

Compatibility with a WYSIWYG type package (maybe not at launch :roll: )

All this for less than €10K

Then it is probably the type of desk you want.

 

As to when we are launching it, no secret Plasa. If we hit a snag and the software is not 100% finished we will still have a console at the show and will be looking for comments. We aim to ship before the end of the year. Again as with any software we can hit a snag that changes this. K9 manages this but if I decide to change features due to feedback then that may delay it.

 

A quick final note on feedback. We try to assess what is realistic from the forum and what is a desire by a single operator. As a manufacturer of a product that we aim to sell in large volume we have to keep it appealing to the majority. We can't give everyone what they want, sorry. It doesn't mean we aren't listening and if we can we will try and add the features. Each desk we design has a business plan and a development costing which we try and stay inside. If we sell more than anticipated it makes it much easier to constantly add features, it is Catch 22 sometimes but with Frog I think we have got it 80% right.

 

Keep the feedback coming and we look forward to showing you a product at Plasa.

 

Graham

[ice]

Great guys! Of course the crap part was just a joke, didn't mean to put it too seriously!

 

A Plasa launch is really great, I must admit that you've got more than I could wish, shipping before the end of the year really rocks. I'm afraid my boss isn't going to buy me one when it ships, but I hope to get him as far as buying one eventually. Or maybe I'll do that myself (a desk for my own... wow )

 

As for the mentioned features;

 

Keypad entry :: is going to save a lot of time

Lots of palettes :: excellent!

Effects :: as expected of course, but I'm curious on what kind of effects

User definable faders :: interested in the implementation

user definable buttons :: interested in the implementation

Touch screen :: what a luxury! use it well

Monitors :: external I guess? Damn... that's going to be a new flightcase I think

Multiple playback :: damn, it's getting better with each feature

Compatibility with a WYSIWYG type package (maybe not at launch ) :: is really the greatest feature you're listing here!! A decent ability to program stuff offline with a Frog! YEAHHHHHHH that's going to save me a lot of time...

 

can I pre-order one? Just kidding, do let us know when one of the 2's is being showed in Holland. I don't think I'm gonna make it to the Plasa, so the first console in Holland is the one I want to witness

[Kirkup_xp]

Thanks for that, NZ. The features do sound great - I can't wait to see the desk. And ready for PLASA - thats so soon (relatively)... great work as ever from Z88.

[NZ]

I am sure we could do a special deal on a pre order.

 

Graham

[Jazzy]

Could it have some powerful hydraulic arms and legs so it could help unload the truck and do a bit or a lot of rigging and explain to the punter, who bitched about the price of hiring 2 Mac 250s, why it dosent look like Pink Floyd at Earls Court ( using those hydraulic arms preferably).

 

Joking aside sounds like a good board. Looking foward to its launch.

 

PS. Can it have USB so you can use one of those flash memory key ring devices or compact flash or multimedia cards, anything but floppy disk or PCMIA card

[NZ]

Only one....that's good.

 

To beat punters I find littlelites are the go.

[ice]

I am sure we could do a special deal on a pre order.

 

Graham

 

As in major discounts? By the way... if you have a desperate need of foreign product-testers

[Yves]

By the way... if you have a desperate need of foreign product-testers

 

acount me also in as an applicant

[K-Nine]

As Graham said earlier in this topic, the new desk will not have all the planned features implemented immediately.

 

I would imagine there will be several feature updates over a period of time, and we may well provide Beta versions of software to those registered members of the Beta test Usergroup.

[ice]

How about a picture or bitmap of the front of the console??

[Yves]

a simple drawing would please me to