Frogs and the Future ?

[ice]

Good question... you keep repeating that the Frog series of desks were meant for the "budget" range of lighting desks (okay; it's definitely not for free, but cheaper than avo / MA / hogs!). What about the sucessor of Frog? Will that be a desk which has everything we want (kind of working itself to the Pearl) or a compromise (if so; what will be changed? :S)

Was that "sucessor of the Frog" idea of yours real; are there plans on that, or is the project already started as we speak? I'm very curious about that!

[NZ]

Now that would be telling! It is safe to say that there will be a Frog II. It would be wrong to say exactly when it is due out, or perhaps I simply don't know yet :wink: .

 

At present we offer a product that addresses a part of the control market and has a good share of the segment where it fits. When we bring out a new desk we will seek to broaden our share of the control market. That means we will offer a product that features many of the advanced features users are now asking for in Frogs. We have learnt a long time ago that not everyone is going to be happy though . It will also cost more than the existing Frogs. If you want the features that go into an Pearl or an Ultralight etc then they come at a cost of substantial development time and hardware costs.

 

Once we have an idea of when this product will be available we will post it here. In the meantime though we will continue to develop software for the current Frogs and will implement more of the things that are being asked for, if they are possible and can be achieved in a way that is useable without you haveing to hold down three buttons and then push three others to get the effect to work:P . If you want many of the things being asked for like parameter level programming, unlimited fixtures etc then you really need to look at the Illusion as it does all of these things. The main difference is that it has no faders. That said you can plug in a fader wing and assign channels to these faders. How important are faders for channel levels or are you happy to program using a keypad?

 

In the meantime though we are about to launch a new desk at Rimini, it is a small club style controller called Diablo. There should be data on our main website this week.

 

Cheers

[lxkev]

if you do bring out a new desk...i'm more more then willing to be a beta tester:-)

 

one thing, which would be really useful, is a LCD along the sub, stating the sub.name!! in the long term it would save thousands :? on PVC tape!! also helping the Environment!!!!! :?:

 

if you are gona bring out a desk similar to the pearl level...ur gona have to make ya desk cheaper then the pearl..coz d pearl does a lot and comes with visualisation, and there's a lot of ld's + desk ops who will buy/hire a pearl..coz it the indutry standard "Live" desk. :oops:

[ice]

The MaXXyZ has flash buttons in which the name of that sub is displayed; that feature ROCKS! Motorized faders would be great too in some occasions, and indeed a different way of programming. Combine that with the use of 2 touch-screens and you've got a whole different desk than the Frog. It's the question how cheap u guys can acheive that; when it doesn't differ a lot; most opps would want the Pearl I guess (it is the standard indeed).

That beta-test thing sound great indeed, and I hope u do listen to the remarks made here, and maybe ask our opinion on some of the development questions; it's mainly the communication to the customers which I value in your case!! Really doing a good job, I'm eagerly waiting for new development.

 

Oh and a new feature which would be great; overlapping transparancy... it's really cool when a desk is exactly remembering what it's doing, and which things have priority. Kind of like the LTP things; but I'll try to explain the difference; you run a colourchase A, and then by-hand select a colourpallet. The fixtures should change colour accordingly, but when the opp tels the desk to "exit" that step; the chase should continue where it left off. That, combined with a good way of parameter programming is really getting nere the high-end desks.

[Yves]

If you want it like the Maxxys (screens, cd, intercom, etc) I think it will cost a bit too much to devellop and manufacture the desk.

the price will be to high for the users that use the frog range at the moment I think and then the question is: is there still a big demand for desks of that type so zero can make profit out of it.

I'm happy with the mambo, but the idea of a display above the submasters/FX buttons is indeed interresting.

also like the béta tester idea. count me in.

[gusrocks]

seams a good target for a new frog 2 would be the avo pearl. a step up in price and features from the frog but not trying to compete with a hog. should be laid out like a frog is now. seams a good target market to me.but hey im a soundman so what do i know

[sam.henderson]

The Maxxyx costs in excess of "£26,000" so any feature on a Maxxyx (including the incredibly cool motorised faders) is not reasonable to ask for from a frog!!

 

They are just 2 completly different desks in two different worlds.

 

NZ or K-9, What will be the RRP so to speak of this new club desk being brought out or are you doing the old let the market decide trick again?? Persoanlly as a customer I would appreicate it if you gave us a rough guide to the RRP so we know we are not being completly ripped off by supliers/ distributers.

 

Sam

 

Edit; PS- Count me in for any sort of beta testing

[Yves]

Edit; PS- Count me in for any sort of beta testing

seems there are a lot of potential béta testers around here.

however I guess it's going to take a while before a new desk is introduced

[NZ]

There have been lots of questions and ideas. As a quick guide any new desk we do build will aim to be above the existing Frogs in terms of features and operation. It won't however aim at things like Grandma, Maxxyz etc. Rather it will offer you value for money with several of the features found in the bigger desks. It would be in the region of £5000.

 

A question for all of you is does it need lots of faders or can you program using a keypad for generics? Would it be better to have a bunch of softkeys that you can assign Macros to to allow for easy programming or playback?

 

As to Sam's question the RRP for a Diablo is £539.00. As we all know this is not what you are going to pay for it if you shop around.

 

Regards

[ice]

A question for all of you is does it need lots of faders or can you program using a keypad for generics? Would it be better to have a bunch of softkeys that you can assign Macros to to allow for easy programming or playback?

 

That would definitely depend on the lay-out / software. If you develop a way of easy programming using faders; implement it! If you develop a way of easy programming using a keypad; implement it! I don't think it's a question of "what to use", it's more "how to use it". As we can see; Hogs use keyspads, maxxyz & MA use faders & a bunch of keys, it just depends on the software you write I gues... I don't really care what's used; as long as it's a quick, easy & understandable way of programming.

I think you should throw the Frog aspect aside for a while, and try to make a list of what u guys want to implement. Of course a MaXXyZ kind of desk is out of range; but you could combine the neat (and affordable) things from all of those desks (like a rol-a-cue, or lcd-buttons) into one Zero desk!

There's a saying in Holland; better stealing a good idea than inventing a bad one :twisted: . With all respects to copyrights and things like that of course!

[Kirkup_xp]

A question for all of you is does it need lots of faders or can you program using a keypad for generics? Would it be better to have a bunch of softkeys that you can assign Macros to to allow for easy programming or playback?

 

Lots of softkeys would certainly be appreciated. I quite like the way its implimented onto the Strand 500 series - you can assign the submaster flash buttons from flash to macro, meaning you can set them to macro for programming and then back to flash for running the show. Of course, the P keys on the 500 series are also nice as you can perform fixture resets, etc with a little programming.

 

As for faders for generics, I don't think they're necessary at all - A wheel would do fine. (or CHAN @ LEVEL *)

[ice]

Is this new desk aiming at live or theater use? The combination of those two on the Frog isn't really an ideal one I think; that would explain why there is such a gap between theaterdesks and live ones.

[Haytech]

A question for all of you is does it need lots of faders or can you program using a keypad for generics? Would it be better to have a bunch of softkeys that you can assign Macros to to allow for easy programming or playback?

 

What about a small amount of 20 motorfaders which could be switched to submasters / speedgroups / generics pages - ther should be a way to combine

them ... and call this pages with a key pad or have say sx buttons.

 

I think you should throw the Frog aspect aside for a while, and try to make a list of what u guys want to implement.

 

Ice is right, brainstorming is needed to implement a successful successor to the green frogs ...

 

At the end of the day there will be more questions, like should it be a live show desk or the more theatrical one.

 

What about a inventing game ? - best ideas get a free Z88 shirt this could fit in the policys of Zero88 - Fits to many a mickle things ...

 

regards

[Yves]

I hope the new desk comes with a lot of FX buttons, they're useful I think. or maybe some wheels where you can assign different things (color, gobo, shutter, dimmer,...) for a group of fixtures, so you can change them that way without programming a lot of FX buttons or change the groups and control it with the wheels that there on the desk at the moment.

 

The idea for an inventing game seems interesting. I could maybe help the people from Zero88 to know what the users want and what they think is needed in future desks. But you can maybe tell what can be done and what is out of the question. Or let the users determine what they are willing to pay for such a desk.

[GLX]

How about planting one of those frog touch screen's in the desk, and use that for triggering all effects on the desk

[sam.henderson]

In regards to Faders, like haytach said it woould be the good to get the best of both worlds

 

:idea: I would like 20-40 motorised faders for generic pages

and

a few non-motorised faders (15) for submasters.

 

:idea: A touch screen I also think would be a good idea, this is the way Lighting Boards seem tto be moving forward.

 

:idea: More ways of backing up shows (CD-RW) and a parellel port for a printer

 

:idea: Lots of possible wing attachments to make the desk very much customizable for different applications. I.E. Youcould have a speducked Submaster Wing, A Playback wing, You could even add moving fixtures wing and generic channels wings- You could make the desk completly your own. This would be esspecially ggood if the main console was cheap and you earned your profit on the wings- you would beable to supply the desk to all budgets then as well.

 

Sam

[Haytech]

More ways of backing up shows (CD-RW) and a parellel port for a printer

 

CD - RW ? have you think about the bus system and software needed to write and read CD ROMs all this things have to be invited for the Frog Desks... these problems apart is a CD drive a little overdressed to put 700KB things on it ...

 

I think it is not a very big problem to have motorfaders, but why the duck a desk should have a expensive touch screen ? It´s needless if we have a cool interface on screen and some softbuttons....

[ice]

ZIP drive?

[Haytech]

DVD Ram 8O could be cool viewing videos playing games and copying stuff while boring work

[lxkev]

in requards to faders???

 

Submasters!!! loads 20, on pages, some way a visual displaying the name above, roller page. LCD....

 

think you should keep with some faders for generics and movers, i liked having control of a moving fixture brightness on a fader.. i like the pearl method of doing this...pages of brightness faders....

 

Stage mode would be great. espically cool if u could draw ur stage shape, and mark where ya fixtures r...

 

i think most importantly, u should offer a deal on the price on the super desk, 2 your customers on here

 

o...and please, please, not green!!!!!!!! its looks hmmmmm

[Haytech]

I never mind the colour of the desk - I think nobody is interested really.

By the way each person who has seen the desk mentioned the cool design ...

[Pipo]

If you are going to implent faders (faderbank A: 1-12 and faderbank B13-24) then could you add two faderbankmasters?

[NZ]

Some ideas for you all to kick around:

 

10 playback stacks that can each have a cue stack assigned to it. 100 pages of stacks.

 

10 user definable faders. This means you could use them to bring up channels, assign a memory to them, assign a parameter to them like a colour wheel or......

 

40 user definable buttons. Think SX buttons on speed, they could be palettes, groups, a memory.....

 

A touch screen.

 

Enough to go on for now :twisted:

[hhs]

First of all, as a school we would need the desk for both live and theatre use, we currently have a Fat Frog and use it for theatre, and live concerts etc where we run the shows off subs. Taking away one aspect of the desk will lose you buyers guaranteed, the Strand 500 series of desks are designed for both live and theatre use and thats what makes them the most widely used desks in the west end.

 

Motorised faders - we don't really see a need for them on this type of desk, if you want motorised faders then surely it would be better to go for a MaXXyZ or something.

 

We think the idea of programming generic channels from a keypad is good, it would give more scope for expansion and then the room on the desk used currently for generic faders could be used for more submasters. The use of a keypad for calling up memories and entering fade times etc would also be very useful and would save alot of time during programming. We also like the idea of having some sort of lcd screen for labelling submasters, but the current lcd screen on the frogs which is used instead of a monitor is a bit of a waste of time as everyone seems to have a monitor now. But keep the lcd display for the fixture information we use that and is very useful.

 

One of the most important features though, would be to increase the power of the desk so it is able to control more generic channels and fixtures.

 

Another feature we'd personally like to see is the use of attributes, like on the 500 series so the desk will remember things like scrollers and their colours, this way your not having to use channels to run your scrollers etc. The 500 also reads the next memory, and will preset things like colours in scrollers ready for the next memory.

 

A second monitor would also be useful for viewing combinations of screens at one time, ie memory screen and preview screen or whatever you want.

 

Some software for PC's to be able to read saved shows and be able to print off copies of channel values for each memory etc would also be helpful.

 

Just some ideas for you. Thanks again,

 

The guys from Hemel Hempstead Performing Arts College, in association with AB Lighting and Special Effects

[Haytech]

Enough to go on for now

 

Hi Graham,

As marketing guy you should know if, you ask the users it will never be enough . Else if you ask the investors they would like to have a

selfworking lightdesk as big as a 1HE Unit to install in a siderack doing all the work like patching, plotting, cueing self. It would be better if it can print a stageplan with all fixtures and positions to give it stagehands.

(It should have a DFA* knob)

So a lighting tech or a LD is gonna be useless.

 

As user I´m very happy with our desk it does all it´s work very good- As you can see on several pics esp. after the software updates.

So I totally trust you doing a great successor to the frog´s

 

(* Does Fu**ing Anything referred to roadie lingo from www.roadie.net )