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Lufferov

Where is it in the product line?

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Where does the FLX sit in your product line? Is it designed to replace the Solution? Does it sit between the Solution and Orb XF? Or is it between a Jester and Solution?

 

Looking at it, I'd say it's somewhere between the Solution and the Orb. It just confuses me that on your product page you have it listed below the Solution.

 

We currently have a Frog 48 which needs replacing, we were going to just buy a new Solution. But the announcment of the FLX makes me think that might be a better option. But is there anything the Solution does that the FLX doesn't?

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Looking at the specs i would say it is the entry level into the Zeros operating system. so i would say it is not replacing any of the current consoles it just sits between the Jester and the Solution.

 

Looking at the specs and quick guide it is missing some useful programming screens that both the ORB and solution posses. and instead gives the user just two easy to access screen layouts. also within the spec details it has less pallets ect.

 

Note this is only my opinion and not necessarily where Zero88 officially want the product to be placed.

 

take a look at page 9 of the Zero88 product brochure (link below) this shows a nice comparison grid of the different consoles available from Zero88.

 

http://www.zero88.com/literature/Zero88_Eaton_Cat_UK_Issue22_01_2015.pdf

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Yes, it looks like you could be right, but the thing that is confusing me is that the FLX has the keypad just like the Orb which I would love. I much prefer a command line interface! So now I'm really torn between replacing the Frog 48 with an FLX if we're losing functionality and just getting a new Solution.... While the Solution does have the command line, the lack of keys makes it so awkward to use it's basically not an option for programming.

 

What's also confusing is I've heard a rumour that the RRP for the FLX is £3400 (ex. vat) which is roughly £600 more than you can pick up the Solution! So paying more for less? If that's correct then it's a bit of a mess...

 

I'd hoped that this desk was going to be a competitor to the ChamSys MQ60 and the like. But if it fits in below the Solution I'm guessing it won't really be able to compete with that? I hope I'm wrong, I kind of wish they'd just replaced the Solution with a new product.

 

It seems to me the Solution is going to be more or less obsolete, why would you want to get that over an FLX? Also in my opinion they should have fitted the FLX with motorised faders too. Having pages makes using not motorised faders a real PITA.

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that there are only two screen layouts? The quick start guide looks the same as the Solution, maybe I'm missing something though? Perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

It does look like fewer palletes, but it still has 240 of each and frankly, even in the most demanding musicals I've plotted on the ETC Ion, I don't think I've ever had more than 100 palletes of any one parameter.

 

So I guess in summary I'd like to have seen the FLX with the following:

 

- Same software specs as Solution

- Motorised faders

- Support for 2 monitors

 

Then they can ditch the Solution which is now pretty much redundent anyway. I think I've talked myself into getting an FLX after all that, but just wishing they'd gone that little bit further with it.

 

EDIT: Another thing that puts the FLX above the Solution in my view is that the keypad gives direct control of all 2048 channels of DMX. The Solution only give you direct control of 48 via the channel faders, trying to go above that causes a lot of headaches. So again, I'm struggling to see the relevance of the Solution now.

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I agree. I was hoping the FLX was going to be between the solution and orb as you get the best of both command prompt and hands on dimmer/fader control (although i suppose this is what the ORB XF does)

 

The reason i think you only get two screen layouts is because if you have a look at page 6 of the quick guide it shows the two screen layouts and also mentions

 

"External monitor The optional external monitor can view one of two different desktops – “Programming” or “Palettes”."

 

this makes me feel that a lot of features i like for instance DMX output, effects generator etc will be missing, or maybe this is something that will be toggled through the internal touch screen (for me not ideal).

 

I am surprised at the cost, although this could be justified through R&D costs, new improved hardware like the integrated touch screen and processor.

 

I would like two monitors to be connected to all of the desks running Zeros as there are so many screens that come in handy when programming, but given the LFX only has two layouts multiple monitors may be a bit over kill.

 

I am not writing the LFX off completely. I will hold back until i get a chance to play with it hands on. but all of the literature suggests it is an entry level to Zeros. the fact it has command prompt i think is just because that is the way most lighting desks go these days.

 

if you have the budget i would go with an ORB. if not i see your dilemma.

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Yes, the gap in their product line is definitely between the Solution and the Orb. The Solution is already a good entry level desk for ZerOS with direct channel control via the 48 faders and the limit of 248 fixtures. Anything below that and the Jester has it covered, and in some ways is already better than the Solution!

 

What Zero 88 need is something beyond that but below the Orb! That's what I initially thought the FLX was. I really don't want an Orb, if I'm going to spend that much, I'll just get an ETC Ion.

 

In fact what they should have done is what I mentioned in my previous post. Replace the Solution with the FLX and give it support for two monitors so I can have pallets, cue list as well as outputs all visible at once. I can't belive they'd remove the output view & effects generator would they? That would be complete madness!

 

I still have lots of questions about the FLX a lot of what we're saying is speculation really, we need more information! At the moment I guess I'm just totally confused as to what market they are pitching the FLX to now. I have a gut feeling they may have missed the mark though.

 

I suppose what I'm also trying to comprehend is why they think the FLX is a good option when you have competing products like ChamSys who are in the same price range.

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Hi keredyelesob and Lufferov,

 

Let me try and answer your points.... however the best way is always going to be to get a FLX in front of you and decide for yourself. We're trying hard to get it in front of as many people as possible as quickly as possible! There's a comment on this link (a Facebook post) from someone who was shown the console today - it shows a few things that stood out to someone not working for Zero 88 !.

https://www.facebook.com/Zero88/posts/947392855294293

 

We discussed in length where to place FLX in marketing material, and decided to place it where it is mainly based on size, speed and ease of use.

 

The main issue with trying to "place" FLX either before / between / above Solution and ORB XF is that ORB / Solution work in very different ways to each other. They use different control methods (channel faders vs syntax), different programming methods (one you press RECORD in the middle of the syntax, the other you press Record at the end) and are aimed at different marketplaces. So to try and place FLX in relation to two products which don't really relate to each other in the first place, is quite hard!

 

When looking at the specs...

 

There are 240 of each palette, which is technically lower than Solution, but I have never seen a showfile with even half of the Solution palettes filled up. FLX also includes a fourth attribute (splitting Beam and Shape), so there's kind of the equivalent of 480 palettes in comparison to the 400 Beamshape palettes on Solution - which is easily the attribute which usually has the most palettes recorded.

 

Recording palettes is also much quicker and easier (if using something like the colour picker, the tab automatically changes to "Palettes" when you press record, and then automatically switches back afterwards. We've also built auto-palettes directly within the window, rather than via setup etc). You can recall them using the touch screen (equivalent of the MFFs on Solution) or via syntax (equivalent of ORB XF). Things like this can't be highlighted on a simple comparision table.

 

There are 241 playbacks on the FLX- that's significantly more than the Solution (technically an increase of 24000%!!!). We no longer use the idea of "submasters", as this functionality (and much much more) is included with the playbacks. There are 200 submasters available on Solution and 600 on Solution XL. ORB XF has 1000 cue stacks and 1000 submasters (but again, I'm almost certain no one has ever used them all!!!).

 

There are up to 2048 channels across four universes, without any limitations. This is the same as ORB XF. Solution has 248 (or 296 on Solution XL) available channels/fixtures.

 

 

(the two screen layouts) makes me feel that a lot of features i like for instance DMX output, effects generator etc will be missing, or maybe this is something that will be toggled through the internal touch screen

 

FLX has been designed to not require the external screen at all. However, if you choose to use one, for launch we've decided to limit the Window Outputs as this is an area we've seen a lot of users get confused with in the past, and an area we wanted to make really really simple and quick. Because of this, we created the two layouts we see most often, and made everything else available through the internal touch screen.

 

Effects appear on the internal touchscreen instantly when you press "effect". We've combined the "Effects Palettes Window" and "Effects Window" into a single window with two tabs, just like the P/T Grid in position and the Picker, Faders and Filters in Colour. DMX Output window will be coming soon...

 

new improved hardware like the integrated touch screen and processor.

 

Yep - we have a quad core ARM processor in FLX - it's awesome. The touch screen is multitouch, and so ZerOS has been updated to start accepting Multi Touch gestures for the first time. The memory is a lot more reliable, no longer requiring a battery to back it up. We're using Neutrik etherCON and powerCON connectors (with internal PSU) - both much more reliable and robust connectors than we've used before. We also include the MIDI and Remote inputs, which is available via an upgrade on the Solution (remote now has 8 channels rather than the 6 we used to have).

 

We can also now output more than just 1024*768 on the external monitor - so plugging in a higher resolution monitor will allow you to see "more" stuff, rather than just everything bigger. So for example, in the "quarter" views, on higher resolution monitors it's possible to see 10 palettes per row in each of the windows, rather than just 5. You can also see more rows at a time without scrolling.

 

 

I still have lots of questions about the FLX a lot of what we're saying is speculation really, we need more information!

 

Let me know your other questions and I'll have a go at answering them!

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There are 240 of each palette, which is technically lower than Solution, but I have never seen a showfile with even half of the Solution palettes filled up. FLX also includes a fourth attribute (splitting Beam and Shape), so there's kind of the equivalent of 480 palettes in comparison to the 400 Beamshape palettes on Solution - which is easily the attribute which usually has the most palettes recorded.

Couldn't agree more on that point, it should be more than any user of this desk willever need. If they do need more than that, then frankly they are using the wrong desk in the first place.

 

There are 241 playbacks on the FLX- that's significantly more than the Solution (technically an increase of 24000%!!!). We no longer use the idea of "submasters", as this functionality (and much much more) is included with the playbacks. There are 200 submasters available on Solution and 600 on Solution XL. ORB XF has 1000 cue stacks and 1000 submasters (but again, I'm almost certain no one has ever used them all!!!).

Pretty much what I expect from any lighting desk these days. This is a good improvment IMO.

 

There are up to 2048 channels across four universes, without any limitations. This is the same as ORB XF. Solution has 248 (or 296 on Solution XL) available channels/fixtures.

This is where things start to get muddy for me, because this puts it significantly above the Solution.

 

FLX has been designed to not require the external screen at all. However, if you choose to use one, for launch we've decided to limit the Window Outputs as this is an area we've seen a lot of users get confused with in the past, and an area we wanted to make really really simple and quick. Because of this, we created the two layouts we see most often, and made everything else available through the internal touch screen.

Sorry, but on this point I'm not conviced, when I'm plotting (or even busking) the more information I can have "at a glance" the better. I routinely have my cue stack and outputs on seperate displays, is this possible on the FLX? Even if it is, having either one on the built in display won't be practical. I know this currently isn't possible on the Solution, but supporting a minimum of 2 displays should be a minimum requirment today. With all the various groups and pallets, having access to everything at once makes a huge difference when busking.

 

Technically the Solution doesn't require an external display, but it becomes a lot more useable with one and productivity increases dramatically. The same would be true with two external displays on the FLX.

 

The ommision of this seems like it be a big oversight.

 

Let me know your other questions and I'll have a go at answering them!

Okay, here are a few to get started:

 

1) Is the list price of £3400 (ex. VAT) correct?

 

2) Is there a price for the fader wing?

 

3) Do you have a release date, or even a window? Will it be this year, summer, autumn, winter?

 

4) Why doesn't it feature an intensity wheel? Enconders just aren't the same for intesity!

 

5) Are there any limitations to the command line interface due to missing buttons compared to the Orb XF?

 

6) What does the Solution do that the FLX can't? Will I be missing anything by replcing my Frog 48 with an XLF?

 

7) Is there a "playbacks" window much like the "Submasters" view before that shows what's on each fader?

 

8) With multiple playback faders now, how do you view the cues in each playback?

 

I probably have even more questions that I can't think of right now :-)

 

Regards.

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1) Is the list price of £3400 (ex. VAT) correct?

That's our list price for launch, yes. However, you should always talk to your local Zero 88 distributor regarding pricing.

2) Is there a price for the fader wing?

Not yet, no.

3) Do you have a release date, or even a window? Will it be this year, summer, autumn, winter?

Yes - we've started building the first batch already, and these have been mainly bought by our distributors for their demo stock. The second batch will be ready for shipping later this month. The Wing will be shipping in a few months.

4) Why doesn't it feature an intensity wheel? Enconders just aren't the same for intesity!

You can use the faders to control intensity, or syntax, or one of the encoders. We're also going to add the ability to use the scroll wheel on a mouse / trackball to control intensity in an upcoming software release.

5) Are there any limitations to the command line interface due to missing buttons compared to the Orb XF?

We've tried to include as much as possible. Obviously there are going to be things done in slightly different ways. For example, there's no "Move" button, but within the copy window, there's the option to Move rather than Copy. Eventually you'll be able to drop and drag things like palettes via the touch screen too - but that's a little further away.

6) What does the Solution do that the FLX can't? Will I be missing anything by replcing my Frog 48 with an XLF?

We've basically covered it all above already. There's no two-preset operation. Blind Mode will be added shortly, but not quite at launch. There's no SMPTE or DMX Input (These are upgrades to Solution anyway. Art-Net input is being worked on for ZerOS in general, so will also be available on FLX).

7) Is there a "playbacks" window much like the "Submasters" view before that shows what's on each fader?

Yes there is. It shows each playback, and the current cue, name and fade times of the current cue on each playback.
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8) With multiple playback faders now, how do you view the cues in each playback?

Hold down VIEW and press the GO button of the playback you want to view the cues of. This appears in the bottom half of the external monitor, if it's plugged in, or on the internal monitor if it's not plugged in.

 

I probably have even more questions that I can't think of right now :-)

Keep them coming!

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I am still intrigued by this desk and look forward to seeing it at the plasa event. Do you have a release date for the phantom flx?

 

I think my main concern with this desk is the ui missing some sceens like dmx output. To be honest when i think about it this is the main screen i will miss as you seem to have changed some screens to have additional tabs like the effects generator.

 

can you tell me will your other zeros desks also support new screen resolutions for bigger monitors?

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Do you have a release date for the phantom flx?

We're using it internally, but we're not quite ready to release it yet... less than a month though

 

I think my main concern with this desk is the ui missing some sceens like dmx output.

Out of interest, how/why/what for do you regularly use the DMX Output Window? This is something on my radar to update and add functionality to, so it would be good to take your comments into consideration while we do this.

can you tell me will your other zeros desks also support new screen resolutions for bigger monitors?

Unfortunately not. This is because their hardware is limited to 1024*768 output.

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Hi Jon.

i mainly use the dmx window to ensure the desk is outputting the correct dmx value, handy when trouble shooting my rig If i have missed plugging something in or have faulty cables. The other reason i use it is that i can see at a glance if i still have effects running on some fixtures when in blackout. Basicaly i like the ability to get a very quick state of the values being output. The output window is good but only for intensity and selected fixtures. No good for a quick overview.

 

Its a shame the hardware in the other existing desks limits the new resolutions,oh well never mind.

 

is the available screens on the flx something you are still considering? Its just currently i do find all of the pallet windows (macros,groups,fx) and dmx output quite usefull, although i do appreciate the new features and methods introduced to the flx may change my mind.

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Okay, I'm pretty happy with everything I'm seeing and hearing so far and mainly just wishing it supported two monitors. It feels like that's going to be the achilleas heel for me, I just want access to more information at once without swapping between displays.

 

The motorised faders would have been a nice touch for the sake of usability, but their abscence is understandable at that price. Besides which, I'd probably just add a fader wing to supplement them if I needed more. I also love that it's expandable like that!

 

Actually, on a side note, will there be any way to have fader wings remoted from the console? For instance, it could be useful to have a fader wing situated on stage for certain situations rather than having to relocate the whole desk. Would be a nice added feature if possible! There could be wings set up with just houselights on them for FOH or cleaning staff to use etc.. without having to give them access to the full console.

 

It does strike me that the FLX is really treading on the toes of both the Solution and the Orb though. Why would I buy an Orb over an FLX now? I guess it has the two screens, but apart from that they both have 2048 channels, unlimited fixtures, kaypad/commmand line interface, we've established that the need for more than 240 palletes is already pushing it. So surely the market for the Orb is going to be the smaller than it's ever been?

 

The appeal of the Orb in the past (for me) has always been the keypad command line, but the FLX has that now so I'm not sure what else the Orb has to offer. Especially given the difference in price!

 

Regards.

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i mainly use the dmx window to ensure the desk is outputting the correct dmx value, handy when trouble shooting my rig If i have missed plugging something in or have faulty cables. The other reason i use it is that i can see at a glance if i still have effects running on some fixtures when in blackout. Basicaly i like the ability to get a very quick state of the values being output. The output window is good but only for intensity and selected fixtures. No good for a quick overview.

Thanks, this is useful feedback. Are there "better" ways we could do this? For example, could we have a switch in the output window to switch between patched channels and DMX. When viewing DMX, the syntax could work for DMX addresses instead of the patch. Or maybe we could show in the output window when effects etc are running, so it's very clear? Have a think and let us know!

 

is the available screens on the flx something you are still considering? Its just currently i do find all of the pallet windows (macros,groups,fx) and dmx output quite usefull, although i do appreciate the new features and methods introduced to the flx may change my mind.

We're definitely open to suggestions... I think we've got a great implementation for launch, but when people start getting FLX in their hands, I'm sure we'll get lots of new great ideas too, which we'll look at implementing.

 

Actually, on a side note, will there be any way to have fader wings remoted from the console? For instance, it could be useful to have a fader wing situated on stage for certain situations rather than having to relocate the whole desk. Would be a nice added feature if possible! There could be wings set up with just houselights on them for FOH or cleaning staff to use etc.. without having to give them access to the full console.

The fader wings use USB for both data and power. However, there's no reason you couldn't use a USB - Cat 5 converter for a longer run - as long as they provided power to the wing. We're also going to implement "Art-Net In", which would allow you to plug a smaller console in - such as a Level 6 (using something like our 1 Universe box to convert from DMX to Art-Net).

 

The appeal of the Orb in the past (for me) has always been the keypad command line, but the FLX has that now so I'm not sure what else the Orb has to offer. Especially given the difference in price!

I think there's still a definite market for ORB XF. There's functionality on ORB XF that FLX doesn't have yet, such as part cues, individual channel times, blind mode, parking etc. ORB XF also has the 60 built in faders, 10 UDKs (which are pageable giving you 200 UDKs and have LCDs for labelling), an intensity wheel, additional I/O on the rear, 4 physical DMX outputs rather than 2, more hard-buttons for command line programmers (things like Snapshot, Cue Only etc are hard buttons on ORB XF, but soft buttons within the record window on FLX).

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When you say functionality the FLX doesn't have "yet" is blind mode a feature that's coming to the FLX? Or any of the other features you mentioned? Blind operation is one thing that would potentially be an issue if it's lacking that. No way to fix any problems once your show is running... I have been known to make the odd mistake now and again! ... Not that I'd ever plot houselights into half the cues.... Noooooo!

 

As for LCDs for labelling... does anyone actually use those? I find they take too long to set up, and I can never fit enough text on them anyway. I just end up using the tried and tested strip of white tape :-)

 

I guess the Orb XF does have some things still to offer, but I'm just not sure the extra price really justifies the extra features... unless you REALLY need them. Hence why I say the market for the Orb is likely going to shrink. I can live without most of the things you mentioned if I'm saving that much money in the process!

 

I guess I'm in a fortunate position in that we already have an Ion for bigger stuff. Our Frog 48 is used for smaller functions, so the FLX looks like it will fit the bill pretty much perfectly.

 

BTW: I love the idea of using USB -> Cat5 with PoE... This could work out really well as our venues already have a lot of Cat5 connectivity.

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When you say functionality the FLX doesn't have "yet" is blind mode a feature that's coming to the FLX? Or any of the other features you mentioned?

 

Blind mode will definitely be added shortly. The rest, we'll have to see!

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As for LCDs for labelling... does anyone actually use those? I find they take too long to set up, and I can never fit enough text on them anyway. I just end up using the tried and tested strip of white tape :-)

 

I use them as do many of my clients, in fact i think it is a shame they have been missed off the FLX especially given the MFF support paging. how do you label multiple pages of faders with one strip of white tape?

if you name the cues as part of your syntax it takes no more time than sticking white tape to your desk picking up a pen and then neatly writing what it does, I also find white tape very frustrating as you can never read what other operators have written, if on tour or for long running shows several operators will use the same desk, I find printed text much easier to read in the dark than someone's hand writing. What do you do if your venue runs one show in the day and then another of a night, swap the write tape to suite the show you have loaded? to say you can never fit enough text on them is odd when white tape can fit even less on it. to be honest it is a real shame the LFX is missing them and I would like them to appear on a mk2 or on the wings (as they I assume the wings are not in production yet)

 

Thanks, this is useful feedback. Are there "better" ways we could do this? For example, could we have a switch in the output window to switch between patched channels and DMX. When viewing DMX, the syntax could work for DMX addresses instead of the patch. Or maybe we could show in the output window when effects etc are running, so it's very clear? Have a think and let us know!

 

I think the DMX window as a layout can't really change as it is so simple and gives the exact feedback i need.

I do like the idea of putting it as a tab within the output window this way I can simple toggle between the two (i never have both of these screens shown at the same time, unless its by accident)

Another thing i use the DMX window for is when I have no lights or visualiser plugged into the console but want to test something, this is also handy on the phantom software when I am testing different ideas.

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I use them as do many of my clients, in fact i think it is a shame they have been missed off the FLX especially given the MFF support paging. how do you label multiple pages of faders with one strip of white tape?

if you name the cues as part of your syntax it takes no more time than sticking white tape to your desk picking up a pen and then neatly writing what it does, I also find white tape very frustrating as you can never read what other operators have written, if on tour or for long running shows several operators will use the same desk, I find printed text much easier to read in the dark than someone's hand writing. What do you do if your venue runs one show in the day and then another of a night, swap the write tape to suite the show you have loaded? to say you can never fit enough text on them is odd when white tape can fit even less on it. to be honest it is a real shame the LFX is missing them and I would like them to appear on a mk2 or on the wings (as they I assume the wings are not in production yet)

Guess that's me showing my age.. I'm just a bit old school, but yes I take you point that it would be harder to manage with pages. I've used desks for so many years including the Strand 500 series, ETC Ion, as well as Fat Frogs, Sirius 48, Strand GSX, Jands Event... there's quite a few more I've missed off the list, partly because I've forgotten what they were called! None of them had LCDs so I always opted for the lx tape solution.

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I've found prices here: http://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?bf=&sw=flx

 

 

 

Blind mode will definitely be added shortly. The rest, we'll have to see!

Is there any release date for the Art-Net DMX In? Would be a realy nice feature to control some more dimmer channels - I really like the DMX In on the other desks like Solution, ORB and even the Jester series.

 

We've got an Jester 2448 and need to upgrade to support leds and movings. We intended to reuse the Jester as Fader-Extension or Remote.

 

The FLX seems to have some really nice new features, i'm looking forward to take hands on at PLS next week. But the difference in price is quite small to the ORB XF (we definitly need a wing for the FLX), and the ORB XF has more features, hasn't it?

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I had a chance to get "hands on" with the FLX today at Stage Electrics, first impressions were generally good. Nice build quality, but we left with a few more questions that the Stage Electrics rep couldn't answer. He's probably going to be getting in touch with you personally, but I'll probably post them here too at some point (it's too late for me now and it's been a loooong day).

 

Would be great to get a demo with a Zero 88 rep though so perhaps that's something we can look into in the near future because it's certainly got me interested!

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Hi Lufferov,

 

Really glad you liked the console.

 

Yes - please post your questions here and we'll answer them.

 

Also, we can arrange a demo for you if that's helpful - drop me an email, and I'll put you in touch with one of the team.

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Also in my opinion they should have fitted the FLX with motorised faders too. Having pages makes using not motorised faders a real PITA.

I have asked both Jon in the past, and Keith yesterday about motorised faders, and from seeing the FLX it would be a nice feature, but non-essential. On the desk you can clearly see what channel you have selected, even when using syntax. The response from both Jon and Keith was that it would really raise the price while not massively raising the ease of use.

It would be great if the faders were motorised, responding to the page changes and the syntax, but the FLX price would just creep up...

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I think the DMX window as a layout can't really change as it is so simple and gives the exact feedback i need.

I do like the idea of putting it as a tab within the output window this way I can simple toggle between the two (i never have both of these screens shown at the same time, unless its by accident)

Another thing i use the DMX window for is when I have no lights or visualiser plugged into the console but want to test something, this is also handy on the phantom software when I am testing different ideas.

 

I realise I'm a little late to this thread and I realise there's been some open discussion on another, but I'd just like to add my +1 to a simple and clear DMX output window as above - and a tab on the output window would be perfect to get at it (and out of it) quickly. For me a raw DMX value is also invaluable at some point. Even though abstracting the data to % and description is the preferred representation most of the time, when you've that last niggling issue or question on what is actually being output to resolve, out comes the fixture manual DMX mapping page and up comes the DMX output window on the desk...

 

Kevin

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