And again Back to 7.7

[uli-s_kn]

Hi Forum, Hi Zero88-Crew, Hi Jon,

 

I tried the new ZeroOS 7.8.2.4 in my Solution an it was horrible.

As described in last years Post (http://zero88.com/forum/topic/6787-solution-getting-slow-under-78/) the Solution is still slow by redrawing the LCD-Displays. Cause to Jon Post in http://zero88.com/forum/topic/7012-zeros-781/ i hoped that this is now solved.

 

It still takes about 3 seconds between changing Bank or MFK Function and redrawing the LCD-Display with the new content.

 

In a first Check, just the Desk with nothing more plugged in, it seemed fine. But while last Show (HipHop-Concert) it went slow again.

 

But now I think I can isolate the Problem a little bit more, tomorrow next Show is sceduled and I wold change backt to 7.7 again, so that i can run the Show, Before I performed the Downgrade I tried the full Setup with the 7.8.2.4-Version, an when I used the DMX-In the Problem appeared.

For explanation the 10 Submasters of the Solution are much to less for me, So I patched some of the Preset-Fader to DMX-Universum4. This Output is merge with a small 12 Ch-Desk together and send It Back in the Solution via DMX-In. These Channels control additional Submasters (as Page Lock so they stay the same). And In the moment I activate one of these Submasters the redrawing slows down. Unfortunately there are Submasters like "Hazer-Pump" and "Hazer-Fan" on the additional Desk...

 

Perhaps this might help you finding and solving the problem.

 

And I like to have the switched funktion of the Clear-Key. ;-)

 

By The way, als in 7.8 the USB-Keybord ist no working on any USB-Ports. Back on 7.7 it work fine again.

 

Greetings

 

Uli

 

[Jon Hole]

Hi Uli,

 

Please can you send me your showfile?

 

The DMX In could well be slowing you down, as you are using upto 3x more submasters than the console was originally designed for.

 

We've made a lot of improvements to the speed in 7.8.2, and everyone I've spoken to so far have been much happier than the previous version.

 

Best regards

 

Jon

[uli-s_kn]

Hi Jon,

 

I will send the showfile after this post via mail.

 

Yes I increase the submaster up to 30, the maximum the software allows, and the amount the XL-Version of Solution provides. So I think the system shoult manage this.

 

As far a I remember the circuit board of my Solution also have the connectors for additional channel-faders an submasters. So I think the circuit boards are the same in. If I'm wrong, you are the one who knows it better.

 

Increasing the amount available submasters doesn't include that I use all of the submasters in the same time.

On yesterdays show under 7.7 I had in one situation 5 submaster running via DMX-In and 1 by the internal submasters. And switching the MFKs the redrawing of the LCDs went perhaps a little slower as normal, but not as slow as under 7.8.2.4 with just 2 submasters via DMX-In.

 

Best regards

 

Uli

[cucolino]

I've written quite a lot here, but decided to rather delete it and go in another way.

Don't want to be rude or anything, but Jon, "you're using 3x more submasters as the desk was originally designed for". - The desk's software allows us to have 30 submasters. Using Input as additional triggers is a hack, due to software not letting us assign faders to anything we'd want. On the other hand, you (Zero88 crew, don't recall exactly who) was the one who mentioned this exact hack here on the forum in the first place...

Second thing is usage of external playback wings. Isn't this exactly what they were designed to be used for?

I imagine you don't really need LF Playback wing on Solution/Leapfrog XL versions, as you have all 30 submasters available, so you can't trigger anything else (triggering submasters on other than active page is not possible anyway).
So the only thing they would be use for are to be extended playback/submasers fader surface, which somehow leads to what you just said is "something that the desk was not designed for". What's the point of having Playback wing then?

[Jon Hole]

Thanks for the email uli-s_kn - our software team are investigating what could be causing this for you.

 

cucolino - I will reply to your personal message directly, but it's worth saying that as far as I'm aware Uli's issue is the first speed-related issue that's been reported since the new software, and so we're treating this as a one-off case at the moment while we investigate what could be causing it.

[cucolino]

@Jon, I'd be happy to send you over my showfile from my latest setup I've been doing for the last 2 days.

Steps made:

 

- Fresh install 7.8.2 on the desk

- No scenes loaded, just 3 user fixtures, and freshly patched complete mixer

- Together: 20 Movers, all 48 Analog dimmers + 3 DMX In dimmers (patched on MFK and used DMX In as trigger)

- 12 color palettes, 13 beamshape palettes, 12 position palettes, 19 groups

- 2 submasters, both controlling only intensity of 2 groups of MHs

- 1 Memory, used for template on Clear

- Cooper C. LF Playback wing connected

- Disabled outputs 3&4 as they're not used, thought it would help...

 

Simptoms so far:

- LCDs are refreshing disturbingly slow

- Whole desk has a lot of delay. When flashing those 2 submasters in rate of around 2Hz (each is activaded within the second, the other just between), output has delay of aprox one step. Meaning, when I flash group 1, group 2 is actually outputed.

- Without external touch display it's completely blind working...

 

 

 

Ps: other noticed things in 7.8.2 that are bothering us:

- Numlock on external keyboard is still inversed

- On fixtures that have Pan&Tilt in 8 bit mode, with FPan and FTilt separately controlled, fade time, effects and fader-driven position change on submasters only affects the Pan and Tilt channels, using 8 bit mode, which leads to stepping effect... Meanwhile using 16 bit mode is almost impossible with the wheels, as they're way to inpredictable to be used Live in that mode! (No, unfortunatelly changing wheel sensitivity does not help much...)

- Effects offset mode seems to be broken? (Or I'm doing something really wrong). I remember clearly that I used to set Shift+Offset to randomize movements, now all it does is spreading the pairs a little. Movers 1-6 still work the same (mirrored) in pairs 1-6, 2-5, 3-4, and I can't seem to randomize this.

 

- It would be useful to be able to have DMX In used for something else, at least to work with 1ch Scroller (I was able to patch it, but didn't work.). The way it is now, that Inputs can only control intensities, its not possible to have anything "Blackout" resistent. In a theatre, this is a must-have, as there are house lights that needs to be on at all times, and since they're in the same universe as half of their dimmers, there's a trouble.

 

Sidenote: - It would be helpful to have such (basic) things solved in understandingly short time frame. There are things that we've been waiting for way too long now... :/

PS:

Is "Load"ing the specific Memory (into the programer?) = applying it with parameters tagged?
Is there any reasonable explanation why, on Cleared console, with Memory 1 applied, 4 of the movers, which are supposed to change position on Memory 2, are already in that position on Memory 1? And, at the same time, when on memory 1, if this same memory Loads into the programer, those movers jump to the position they're supposed to be in the first place...? And they jump back when clearing...? It's like some "leak" or something.... Could you please check that?

[cucolino]

Edit: Nevermind for the Effects offset. Found out that Shift mode was set to "Fan V" instead of Fan middle/first, which seems to do the work.


By the way, after programming about 28 submasters, the refresh delay of subs LCD is about 3 second, MFK about 5. This renders programming very difficult, as I have to wait until I see what the LCD above the wheels says. Meanwhile, I don't understand why the effects palettes have to constantly refresh themselves (due to long name). Refreshing all LCDs seems to cause the issue. Kind of understandable, considering the fact the console uses multiplex for LCD refreshing... Renaming effects, and keeping all palettes names short enough to fit single square helps a bit. But it would help even better, if those "E01, E02" numbers could be removed, as they are eating chars for no reason...

[keredyelesob]

Is "Load"ing the specific Memory (into the programer?) = applying it with parameters tagged?

Is there any reasonable explanation why, on Cleared console, with Memory 1 applied, 4 of the movers, which are supposed to change position on Memory 2, are already in that position on Memory 1? And, at the same time, when on memory 1, if this same memory Loads into the programer, those movers jump to the position they're supposed to be in the first place...? And they jump back when clearing...? It's like some "leak" or something.... Could you please check that?

 

From what i understand when you load a specific memory into the programmer the desk will only load what values the memory has stored (not tracked values).

It sounds like the behaviour with the position of your lights is because you have 'move on dark' enabled and the position values are not stored in the memory you are loading. If you are running the memories back then the desk will move the fixtures to their next stored position (if smart tag was used then this will be the next position when the fixture intensity was >0, otherwise it will be the next 'tagged' position) when loading the memory into the programmer it is just loading the tagged parameters,

To try and see how tracking works i would make a quick queue stack then export the show to excel, this will show you in a grid form what memories are storing what perimeters and will allow you so see how the desk jumps to the next position, colour, beam shape when move on dark is enabled. from what i see the behaviour you describe is not a leak just functionality in how tracking lighting desks work.

 

- It would be useful to be able to have DMX In used for something else, at least to work with 1ch Scroller (I was able to patch it, but didn't work.). The way it is now, that Inputs can only control intensities, its not possible to have anything "Blackout" resistent. In a theatre, this is a must-have, as there are house lights that needs to be on at all times, and since they're in the same universe as half of their dimmers, there's a trouble.

 

If you using Scrollers would it not be best to us it as a fixture, where the lamp the scroller is attached to would be controlled with the intensity parameter and the scroller was controlled by the colour parameter, this way basic functionality like MOD would work in your favour. (Zero88 have already put a scroller fixture in the standard fixtures list)

Regarding house lights i generally work on the preciple never to program house lights into your lighting console, if you have to i would do this at the end of the programming session to avoid tainting the show, at that point put them onto a sub master so the HTP rule will take effect. Another method i have used in theaters that insist on putting house lights onto the production network is to use a DMX merger that uses HTP and have a cheap 6 channel console control them, never patching them into the main show console. if anything it may be nice to have DMX in operate like a DMX merger (so DMX in has no effect over the console just merges the signal with ether HTP of LTP) but i don't really think this is an necessary change control, that is unless other users need it.

If you would like to load your show file that is causing LCD's to slow down onto the forum, i can try and run it on one of my desks to see if i can replicate it. I had never really used DMX in on later version of Zeros so thought this may be causing a problem, but last week I was working on a show for ITV and they needed a method to control some effect side stage so thought i would use the DMX in, conscious of the LCD problem reported further up i kept an eye on the desks behaviour but never had any problem, i am now thinking it may be the fixture type that your using, or like you mention the length of text in the LCDs. ether way i can test if you would like.

[ziglight]

Hello

with 7.8.0 I had horrible slow-down issues especially in Live shows when doing lots of things simultaneously... (and especially when running Subs or Mems with effects on it)

therefore, I could not reproduce some of them while testing at home (it is terrible enough to wait a couple of seconds but 5 seconds is an eternity in a LiveShow -- !!)

 

but all this issues are gone now (since Beta 7.8.1.26 and 7.8.2) - the refreshing is okey for me; although it is not instantly...but its okey !!

 

I use lots of DMX-In channels (for submaster and also as group-intensity-masters); and in my case the use of DMX-IN doesn't seem to influence anything about screen-refreshing

 

so cucolino, if you want to post your show-file here I am interested too, to test it on my solution desk

[cucolino]

Sorry for late reply. I haven't been near the desk for a few days as the show only goes on during the weekend....

I only today managed to get to my USB with showfiles, and also made a video of the screens.

I manged to find out this:

The screens are refreshing fast! as long as no dmx input is provided, and no "agressive" outputs are calculated (ie effects like movement etc... for many movingheads...)

With DMX Input they get a little delayed. Apply circle effect to 16 movers, and you get what I have on a video. :/

@keredyelesob -> I've been playing around if tracking is an issue, but than had no time to figure it out eventually....
I'll dig around this one after I'm done doing this show, later this week... I don't want to mess around now in between...

About the scroller you didn't really get me.. I patched "scroller" into it for actually controlling intensity, this was due to the fact that scroller, unlike regular dimmer, won't be affected on blackout and grandmaster, since it's color parameter, not intensity. I'm completely fine with this and its useful. However, now I have to switch that scroller using color palettes or wheels. (I know it could be used via submaster, or memory, yes...). And instead, I wanted to patch it via DMX In function, like you can patch regular dimmers. This way, I could use external 6ch analog dimmer to control houselights, and at the same time be independent from grandmaster/blackout. Which, at the moment isn't possible, as it affects all intensity channels, and, once again, dmx in can't be patched to anything other than intensity. That's my suggested change!!
While it can be done via submaster using scroller (aka submasters controls colour, and therefore goes from 0 to 255 on color scroller, which will avoid the blackout/grandmaster affecting), and then patching dmx in to trigger that submaster, it's a little waste of submasters for such need... One ok, but when more, it's a waste.. :/

[cucolino]

The links:

Video:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y0x3hdeqnyqgbbm/VIDEO0078.mp4?dl=0

 

The first (patch only) showfile:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/igvnv0lu39eqcdq/Perla_KONCNA2_16BIT.isf?dl=0

 

The last (today's) showfile. Here is actually something made...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1saiku1ygugvc58/Gatsby_Show_4_01_05_2015.isf?dl=0

[ziglight]

Hello

I just had a quick look on your showfile

the first thing I did is to configure "Small Font Size" in Display

in your case with long names , the screens would otherwise refresh twice (and slow-down)

personally I would also configure the values in % (easier to handle than real DMX-Values for 16bit parameters)

 

I did just some tests (running submasters , changing groups, palettes fixtures a.s.o.

and all seems to work normally... longest delay in some cases is about less than one second when all MFGs are filled

no problems for me with the DMX-INs

 

but very big problems are coming up when running Subs and simultaneously effects with a large selection of MovingHeads (two seconds, three or even more delay is coming up on screen refreshing !! )

...didn't investigate further...

but I did some tests on my own showfiles, running Subs and simultaneously effect with ten MovingHeads and I had no noticeable issue (no refresh delay !!)

 

I think that Jon can certainly say more about this issue (very easy to reproduce with your showfile..!!)

[cucolino]

Thanks for confirming this. But, since you said you also use same functions and don't get delay on different show file, would you mind sharing yours for me to check it out?
It is strange, since I did make this showfile from the scratch, after installing 7.8.2. New patch, new palettes, new subs... :/

Also note, that even though I have patched 20 Movers, only 12 of them are actually moving. 8 of them are Washes, which have never changed position at all (default is recorded in all of those 3 memories), except twice on subs, but they're never controlled via effect.
So that's why I'm so interested in your showfile, since I only use 2 MH more than you with effects...

Note though. If I unplug DMX In cable out, there's almost no delay with effects and subs running...

 

As per your two things:
Display mode to small -> I find it really hard and slow to read, rendering displays useless if I set it to small font. Instead, as you can see on my submasters, I split the names/words in 3 sections of max 4 to 5 letters, so that they still appear in big sized font and on single screen at same time.
(This does not apply for palettes, buts thats due to the fact that I use external touchscreen for palettes 90% of the time, so text needs to be visible as is, while I dont mind split text on subs, since I read them off the lcd displays. I know this then affects speed as palettes has longer names, but afterall, shortening names shouldn't be the only solution afteralll :/ )

DMX Values in % -> I'm more comfortable and especially used to work with actual dmx values, so yeah, its just personal preference, I believe...

[ziglight]

hello
here is one of my show-file, some sort of a base-preparation for smaller live events; basicly with 4 LedWashMovers, 4 Spot movers, 8 Sunstrips and (less or more) LedCans and Bars (and also some traditional lights on dimmers) try to get the patch in one univers but sometimes I run it on 2 universes

last year (and OS 7.8.0) I had terrible issues on screen refreshing, even with really small patches; with only 4 LedWashMovers and 4 Sunstrips running Subs and effects in the same time and/or with some selections and many fixtures changing parameters (very slow screen updating)
all this problems are gone since OS 7.8.1.26
yesterday I tested with 12 movers patched (running subs memories and effects) and all looks fine

here is the show file

I use DMX-IN (for Subs and also for master-intensities), connecting or disconnect the cable doesn't change anything on screen behaviour !!

in live work-flow I am using external touch-screen for most of my accesses (groups, palettes, memories FX etc)

I use Effects via palettes but they are also recorded in memories and Subs

 

one more little thing : when I was loading your show-file from the USB stick, my desk got very slow while loading and than stuck (never this happened before); while pressing several times on the enter key it finished finally the loading process !

but when I was reloading my own file, the desk got definitely stuck, and I had to restart it

here is the debug file

this may be interesting for Jon and the Team

[cucolino]

I guess it is interesting, yes... :/

Do you know where it got stuck with my show? It could be about the Wing initialization... I use playback wing with mine....

[Jon Hole]

Hi All,

 

Really appreciate your time at going into so much detail, and helping each other.

 

I've added all these comments, and showfile etc, to a new issue to be looked at independently by our Senior Software Design Engineer. Reference number ZOS-6186

[cucolino]

Cool. Looking forward to getting the reply and any info on why and what is causing this in my showfile!