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kgallen

Can't track a long fade across subsequent cues

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Hi,

 

I'm using a Fat Frog with 10.12.

 

I've been having a play with Tracking [Mode=Partial, Tracking=On(--), Brightness=Channel] using two generics for a starter, before I complicate things by adding some fixtures. (I'm hoping to take the plunge and use tracking in our next show).

 

I have successfully managed to track a chase initiated in an earlier cue, through later cues where the chasing channel is not tagged but other channels are tagged and are moving about. The chase keeps running until a later cue when the channels used by the chase are tagged (as a scene) and revert to a static state. All good.

 

However I have been unable to track a long (scene) fade on one channel through subsequent (scene) cues that don't have that channel tagged, where I would expect it to track. (In this example, all memories are of type scene).

 

CUE9 Ch1=FF, Ch2=00, time=3s/3s

CUE10 Ch1=00, Ch2=00, time=3s/30s [initiate long fade down on Ch1.]

CUE11 Ch1=TR, Ch2=FF, time=3s/3s [Ch1 is tracking (not tagged in this memory). I expect Ch1 to continue on 30s down fade and Ch2 to fade up in 3s]

 

I GO on CUE9 and Ch1 fades up to FF in 3s, Ch2 is 00.

 

I GO on CUE10 and Ch1 begins its 30s slow down fade. Ch2 stays at 00. All as expected.

 

Before CUE10 has completed its 30s down fade (say 10s into the fade), I GO on CUE11. Ch2 fades up in 3s as expected. However Ch1 now fades out in the 3s down time of CUE11, even though it is tracking (not tagged) in CUE11. I would have expected Ch1 to continue on its 30s down fade. Ch1 is tracking in CUE11 so I would not expect CUE11's down fade time of 3s to affect Ch1.

 

In each cue (memory), I can confirm using Preview that Ch1 and Ch2 are either tagged [grey] in that cue or tracking [magenta] as expected, so I'm happy that the tagging is correctly set for each channel in each memory (cue). However I see CUE11 stomp over Ch1's CUE10 fade time for tracked Ch1 as described above.

 

Am I doing something wrong, or is this not supported or is this a bug?

 

Thanks,

Kevin

 

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Hi Kevin,

 

From what I remember on these desks it does not support the track of fade times only the channel levels.

Think we were pushing the limits of the hardware at the end so it was struggling with the fades.

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Cheers Keith, thanks for confirming. That's a shame, but understandable (it's good that you guys enhanced the software as much as you did, as it's still a great desk).

 

I might have a play with the submasters to see if I can use those to overlay a long fade over the memory stack... (but still using tracking because I'd need channel-based brightness tagging).

 

Thanks,

Kevin

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Hi,

 

I had a play with tracking a long fade-down submaster across a running cue stack. This seems to work fine.

 

Reworking my example above.

 

SUB1 Ch1=FF 3s/1:30s (all other channels not tagged)

 

CUE10 Ch1=00 Ch2=00

CUE11 Ch1=TR Ch2=FF 3s/3s

CUE12 Ch1=TR Ch2=00 3s/3s

CUE13 Ch1=FF Ch2=FF 3s/3s

 

GO on CUE10. Ch1=00, Ch2=00

 

Push up SUB1.

Ch1 fades up in 3s. Ch2 no change (=00).

 

Pull down SUB1.

Ch1 starts a slow fade down. This can be seen on the Outputs screen.

 

GO on CUE11.

Ch2 fades up to FF in 3s. Watching the Outputs screen and the lamp, Ch1 continues slow fade down unaffected.

 

GO on CUE12.

Ch2 fades down to 00 in 3s. Ch1 continues its slow down fade.

 

Sometime before Ch1 gets to 00, GO on CUE13.

Ch2 fades up to FF in 3s. Ch1 also joins in (from its current fade down brightness) and fades up to FF in 3s.

Thus CUE13, which has Ch1 tagged (as well as Ch2), takes control of the fade time and brightness of Ch1 from SUB1.

 

All as expected - a slow fade on Ch1 can track across a running memory stack without its fade time being corrupted by the fade times recorded in the cues running on the memory stack.

 

So its interesting that such operation could be made to work properly with a submaster overlaying the memory stack, but not with a cue initiated from the memory stack.

 

I also had a play with editing a few cues after recording. This seemed to work ok and as expected. I added in a couple of LED fixtures to the mix so I could have a play with tracking a colour. First setting a colour change on adjacent cues, then editing to untag the colour change in the second cue and then seeing the colour from the first cue track through when the cue stack was run.

 

The only "niggle" is that from the Edit channel popup there is no visibility of the Fixture channels. You can see the tag status of the generic channels but not those of the fixtures. So I ended up (hopefully) untagging the colour attributes with WheelGroup+Colour, but then having to press Edit (to exit Edit) and hoping that the dialogue box with Modify? C(Yes) B(No) P(No) would come up (showing that I had actually modified 'something' to do with Colour in that Edit).

 

Also it would be useful if the magenta colouring that shows a channel is tracking from another memory was used in the Outputs window. It's only used in the Preview window, so whilst you're getting the hang of it you have to keep selecting the Preview window to see the tracking status of a given channel. This is awkward if you want to know the tracking status of the current outputs as the Preview window will usually show the action for the next memory (as you would expect). So to look at the current cue track status you have to go back the Memories window, back step the cursor to the current cue then Preview again.

 

I'm feeling much more comfortable with Tracking now (cocky?!), I might just give it a go on the next show! I feel more comfortable with it than using non-tracked Partial mode, where I've got in a hellish mess in the past. With non-tracked Partial, when you go back in the stack (usually to do an edit), you just don't get the look on stage you expect, because the non-tagged channels stay wherever they are, rather than being (i.e. tracking!) to what they would have been (will be) when the cue stack is played in sequence.

Hope this is useful to you Fat Frog devotees, and you feel up to giving Partial+Tracking a go!

 

Regards,
Kevin

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I think this also partly illustrates the software issues between different consoles of the same 'era' from Zero that isn't now an issue with ZerOS being on Solution and Orb.

 

I use Illusion 500's as the front panel is "cleaner" in the location I use it mostly - folk don't look at lots of faders and faint but it has a Go playback stack that does almost everything I wanted from GeniusPro on the 500 series.

 

What you're trying to do Kevin, I would probably try and do with 'part' cues and auto "follow ons" - the part facility allows a cue to have several different velocities assigned to channels so you can move at varying rates - very useful for nice fades to black if you want to 'track' an actors move offstage.

 

However, the hardware inside the FatFrog and the Illusion is essentially the same - the mainboard is common to both (I have a FatFrog as an engineering spare plus a spare Illusion) and only the case and front panels vary - so the hardware can manage to do it but at the time when both were current, no one saw the need for the software to be able to 'crossover'.

 

Imagine where we'd be today if the Illusion software 'ethos' was in the Frog from all that time ago - ZerOS is of course the embodiment of that now :D

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Just to clarify for other readers, when Ian talks about 'part' cues, he's talking about a feature on the Illusion 500, so don't go looking for it on your Frog range desks. Frog range can do auto follow-ons by setting the 'Trigger' to 'Auto'... but you all knew that already didn't you :rolleyes: !

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