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PeterV

Colour Palettes on Fat Frog

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We now have more LED lanterns than the number of fixture controls on our FF, so we pick and mix what we need for each show. We have done some research and have prepared 24 colour palettes for the bulk of them (which are all Philips Selecon PL1 range). I can see how this can be done for an individual show, but as they are applied per fixture the colour palettes will potentially need to be redefined each time. Is there any way of defining the palettes once and using them again with the fixtures in different places? Peter

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Hi Peter,

 

Are all the fixtures the same model, in the same mode, just rigged in different places?

 

If so, instead of unpatching the fixtures, you could just change the DMX address of the fixtures to the address of the lanterns you wish to use.

This way, the desk doesn't know they are physically different lanterns, and so the palettes will still work.

 

Hope this makes sense?

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Hi Jon - We have 13 x PL1 (which we always run in the same mode and on which we want to use palettes) + 3 x other LED1 + 3 x other LED2 + DMX to Sound box any of which MIGHT be used for a particular show (and might well also have haze/smoke at some point).

 

On PhantomFrog I setup a PL1 on fixture 1 and programmed a simple colour palette which works fine. Now I add a second PL1 on fixture 4 and select the colour palette - which shows as PO1 on the displays but colour outputs are all zero (fixture 1 is still fine). There doesn't seem to be a way of picking up an existing palette as far as I can see?

 

I have also tried defining all 12 fixtures as PL1, programming the colour palette on all on them, testing it works then changing one of the fixtures to something else then back to PL1, but now this one can't use the colour palette - again it shows PO1 but colour outputs are zero.

 

Putting in the 24 palettes we want takes quite a long time and is very tedious (I did it for real on Sunday) so I was hoping it only needed to be done once. I suppose I could repeat last experiment and save this as a starting configuration on a special floppy (USB in our case) which is write protected? So at the start of a show if the new LD (we have the luxury of 5) wants to use some or all PL1s (he'd better!) then he can load this first then change any fixtures needed to something else but the PL1 palettes will still work. Of course some numbskull is bound to undo the write protect and overwrite it at some point, but this sounds possible - unless there is an easier way?

 

Peter

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Hi,

 

As you found in your para 3 above, the palette is programmed with the data for the fixtures that are selected at palette programming time, so if you ever wanted to apply a palette to fixture 4 then the palette needed to be programmed with fixture 4 selected having dialed up the required "look".

 

I haven't tried this... but maybe if you have spare palettes (FatFrog has 48 colour palettes if I remember correctly assuming you have recent software **) you could programme a set with the PL1s configured on all 12 fixtures, then redefine the 12 fixtures as your other LED type then reprogramme another set of palettes (again all 12 selected). Then if you have a mixture of fixtures configured you can apply the PL1 palettes to those fixtures (or the subset you wanted) and the other palettes to your other units. Creating the floppy as you suggest is a good idea.

 

Remember a palette is a specific look of a set of fixtures colour/beamshape/position (as appropriate) and is much more powerful than just storing a setting for "red" which you apply to one or more fixtures. When I first started using the console I thought I stored a palette as e.g. "red" then applied that to one or more selected fixtures at "runtime", but this is not how palettes actually work. Your para 2 reads like you also had the same (incorrect) perception as me at that time.

 

Hope that helps, or if nothing else something to try (with a couple of simple palettes to start with!)

 

Kevin

 

**Edit: FatFrog has 48 of each palette from software 10.8, see release notes:

 

http://zero88.com/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/GetAttachment/56/554

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Hi Kevin - yes I was aware of having more palettes, it is just a coincidence that we have 24 we want to use (which match the 24 which are defined as presets on the lanterns themselves, but which are NBG for our use as they "scroll" when crossfading).

 

I think I have tried as you suggested already - basically when I define the palette it will only apply to the fixtures defined at the time the palette was created. I can't get new fixtures to "join" this pallete even if they are of the right fixture type. This means even if I define all the fixtures as PL1 then define the palettes I want, as soon as I change any of the fixtures they get disconnected from the palette and can't use them anymore, even if I put PL1 back.

 

Even more confusingly if I define/redefine a PL1 fixture later on, I CAN select the colour palette and they show that the palette is in use, but all the colour channels are at zero when I try to use them. This suggests that there might be a way of fixing this, as something might be holding the colours down? So I will try a few more experiments and see what I can figure out.

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Peter, did you get anywhere with this? I also now have a similar requirement to want to save a palette library not knowing now what combinations of fixtures I will map for a given show...

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Hi Kevin

 

Here is what I sent to the other LD's this morning. In our case it is one of the four types of DMX device on which I regularly want to use colour palettes for (to match the ones Philips Selecon presets on the lanterns themselves). Hopefully it will make sense as a cold read!

 

The “LED Guide Issue 4” documents the colour presets used internally by the Philips Selecon LEDs in a table. As part of the third LED workshop, I programmed these as colour palettes on the Fat Frog meaning that I could select these colours from the desk (rather than on the lantern) so that they could be saved with normal memories to allow colours to be crossfaded as needed at the Chesil. There are 24 colour presets and they were tedious in the extreme to put in, but worked well. In real life, the palettes can be used asis or as a shortcut to get roughly the colour required then fine-tuned as needed for a particular show (the loaded palette could either be left as it was or overwritten as required).

 

Unfortunately there is a snag. The colour palettes on the Fat Frog are programming time options – which means that you must select which fixture types and numbers (1-12) will use a colour palette WHEN the cues are defined. You can’t come back and add a fixture later or change an existing fixture control in any way. So when a colour palette is defined:

 

  1. You must have already setup the fixture controls with the FINAL profiles you are going to use.
  2. All the Selecon LED fixtures you want to use the palette with must be selected (you can never add to this).

 

Then when you program a cue, the above must have been true when the palette was defined in which case you can select it very easily:

 

  • Select the fixture controls containing the Selecon LEDs you want to use a colour from the palette with.
  • Hold down the Colour button – if you have a monitor attached you will see the 24 defined colours by name.
  • Press flash buttons 1-24 to match with the colour you want.
  • Release Colour button.
  • Check colour set on each fixture and you will see it says “Pnn” above the control wheels (but NOT on the monitor which will show DMX values) on each one where nn=colour number. You can override RGBW individually if you want to in the normal way by moving the appropriate wheel(s).

 

The 24 colours are: Warm White, Cool White, Daylight, Arc White, Red, Yellow, Daylight Blue, Magenta, Aqua, Medium Amber, Lavender, Blue, Light Pink, Green, Pink, Amber White, Dark Fuchsia, Light Amber, Steel Blue, Light Green/Blue, Orange, Medium Pink, Cyan, Purple.

 

What I have done is prepare a “Show99” which is a complete reset of the desk to default patching and settings plus:

  • Fixtures 1-12 are all defined as “SELECON PL1 16-bit”.
  • Colour palettes 1-24 have been connected to each of these.
  • No DMX addresses have been patched.

 

So if you want to use the colour palettes you need to do it before your start programming:

 

  1. Load show99 from a special USB stick which is to be prepared [just finished doing this Ed.]
  2. Remove the special stick and put your show one back in!
  3. Adjust allocation of fixtures as needed for your production (leaving Selecon LEDs where you want them).
    WARNING: If you clear a fixture control then redefine it as a Selecon LED, the colour palettes will NOT be available to it. So change the fixtures you want to be something else and optionally clear any you don’t intend to use, so the Selecon LEDs you are using remain intact.
  4. Patch DMX addresses to each fixture control (remember you can have multiple addresses [max 100] on each fixture control, for instance for cyc lights).
  5. Programme your show in the normal way. However don’t forget:
    1. The Selecon LEDs will change colour when you tell them to (either to a colour in the palette or one you setup yourself).
    2. The time to change colour is defined on each cue as “LTP Fade” which defaults to 3 seconds (which is immediately below Fade Up and Fade Down times). The time to change INTENSITY is controlled by Fade Up and Fade Down with everything else (as this it HTP). [LTP = latest takes precedence, HTP = highest takes precedence].
    3. To avoid the situation of the colour changing when a LED is faded up:
      1. Change LTP time on the fade up cue to be zero so the colours will “snap” to their new positions at the start of the cue, OR [Note this might be undesirable if other LEDs are crossfading colours at the same time which will now also snap]
      2. Include the colour change in an earlier cue while this fixture’s intensity stays at zero, OR
      3. Add an extra follow-on cue to the fade out cue to change the colours so they are in place when you fade up again.
    4. As intensity is HTP, if you want to edit the intensity of a fixture in a cue you may find it locked at the level currently stored in the cue (as highest = playing memory is taking precedence). To get around this, select the cue you want to change and press the “Edit” key which will allow the intensity to be adjusted using the control wheel. Press Edit again when you are done (and reply to warning message to save changes).

 

I will add these instructions to the next issue of the LED Guide.

 

Peter

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Hi Peter. Just wanted to say thanks for the comprehensive response! I'll digest that all now! Thanks, Kevin

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Peter,

 

Maybe the following clarifications for your users on your sentence:

 

The colour palettes on the Fat Frog are *palette* programming time options which means that you must select which fixture types and numbers (1-12) will use a colour palette WHEN the *palettes* are *programmed*.

 

Kevin

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Hi Jon,

 

Have you any other suggestions for how we might make a 'setup disk' that contains palettes for a number of (led) fixtures that will be variably assigned to fixtures on the desk? I have several models of LED fixture that don't have identical DMX maps and it would be good to be able to set up and store colour palettes once rather than have to set up each time the desk is reset and the fixtures configured for a particular show.

 

Thanks,

Kevin

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Hi Kevin,

 

Jon asked me to have a look at this.

As PeterV has pretty much said it progrmas pallets based on the fixture channel information that it reads in.

If you delete or change to a different fixture it no longer has this info to use, so will not output anything on that fixture.

Only way i can see of doing this is by having a number of different default show with various fixture combinations already set up.

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Hi Keith, thanks for taking the time to look into this.

 

Cheers, Kevin

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Thanks Keith for checking and confirming.

 

Kevin - my long post doesn't quite read right - we have three models of RGBW Philips Selecon LEDs - PLCYC1, PLFRESNEL1 and PLPROFILE1 - and these are the ones I want to use colour palettes with. They all have the same LED engine so all 13 of them can use the same ones.

 

We also have two other types of LED - UltraBright LED PAR64 and Lanta Orion. These are RGB so tend to be used with only simple intense colours (red, green, blue, yellowish, pinkish, cyanish) so don't need colour palettes.

 

Peter

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