Chases, sub-masters & fixtures... I'm confused!

[DickM]

I spent yesterday programming a Fat Frog for an am-dram Panto for the first time. Most of what I wanted to do came pretty easily but there were a couple of anomalies combining sub-masters, chases, and moving fixtures that I couldn't figure out. Perhaps someone could clear up my confusion?

 

A bit of background info - 36 channels of generic dimmers, plus two MAC 300 wash lights. Entire show programmed in sequential 'scene' memories for simple GO-button playback. Also programmed in Full mode to ensure we could skip a scene if they forget a couple of pages of the script!

 

Q1. I created a simple 3-step auto chase just altering the levels of some generics. I wanted to use this over the top of the current scene being output, so transferred the memory to a sub-master. However, on playback when I add the sub-master the moving fixtures always go back to 'home'. How do I stop the fixtures being saved as part of a 'generics only' chase so they remain where they were put by the main scene memory?

 

Q2. I created another simple chase, this time with just the MACs in two different positions, so on playback they basically move from one place to another and back again. Assigned that chase memory to another sub-master so that again I can bring it in at the appropriate time. When I fade up the sub-master the MACs dutifully open their dimmers, change colour and start moving. But when I fade it out, they stop moving but the brightness is left at 100%. What isn't the brightness lowered by the level of the sub-master that raised it?

 

I'm sure there's a simple explanation for all this, but for a 'once-or-twice a year' user with a very limited amount of programming time, I couldn't work it out.

 

Any advice gratefully received,

Dick.

[K-Nine]

.. Also programmed in Full mode to ensure we could skip a scene if they ‘forget’ a couple of pages of the script!

 

Q1. I created a simple 3-step auto chase just altering the levels of some generics. I wanted to use this over the top of the current scene being output, so transferred the memory to a sub-master. However, on playback when I add the sub-master the moving fixtures always go back to 'home'. How do I stop the fixtures being saved as part of a 'generics only' chase so they remain where they were put by the main scene memory?

 

If the desk is in Full Mode then whenever you program a memory or a submaster, all the generic channels and fixture parameter levels will always be recorded at their current output levels.

 

Consequently when you raise the submaster, the fader level will control the generic channels and fixture brightness, and the fixture LTP parameters will be triggered and go to their programmed values.

 

You could set the LTP trigger in Desk Defaults in Desk Setup to Off, but this default will then affect all your submasters, meaning that they would only control HTP data.

 

Alternatively you could use the desk in Partial mode, and ensure that when programming your generic chase that the fixture brightnesses were at zero and all fixtures were untagged. Transfer the chase onto a sub and then when you raised the submaster, only the generic chase would be mixed in with the other outputs.

 

Q2. I created another simple chase, this time with just the MACs in two different positions, so on playback they basically move from one place to another and back again. Assigned that chase memory to another sub-master so that again I can bring it in at the appropriate time. When I fade up the sub-master the MACs dutifully open their dimmers, change colour and start moving. But when I fade it out, they stop moving but the brightness is left at 100%. What isn't the brightness lowered by the level of the sub-master that raised it?

 

The brightness level of the fixtures is determined by the submaster fader but it is mixed HTP from all the various sources; it sounds like the fixture brightness must be at 100% in another source at the same time. This could be from the Playback X, or from the virtual faders which are set when you adjust a fixture's brightness using the control wheel.

 

Check the current memory on the Playback X and the Playback Status section of the monitor screen to see if the virtual faders are the source of the fixture brightness (see Operating Manual page 7-9)

 

I'm sure there's a simple explanation for all this, but for a 'once-or-twice a year' user with a very limited amount of programming time, I couldn't work it out.

 

Any advice gratefully received,

Dick.

[Laubfrosch]

Hi Dick,

My answere for Q1: To get the desk working like you need it, you need to program your show in partial mode. I full mode every scene includes ALL DMX- Values of all patched channels AND Fixtures!!!!!

 

Answere to Q2: I think you still have the playback X running. You are triggering the LTPs with the Chase at the sub. Stopping the Sub cuts the chase and the HTPs are overwritten from the Playback X.

Probably another hint. You haven´t programmed a black via Shutter(LTP)???

 

 

I hope this helps and my english is not too bad to understand.... :roll:

 

 

Cheers

Sven

[ice]

A1: You have a problem This can only be done by using the desk in partial mode. Full mode always programs everything on the desk, so that means your moving lights to. When you want to use moving lights in you scene's you'd really want to use the partial mode for easy programming.

In partial mode; fixture have to be tagged (yellow LED flashing) in order to be programmed. Un-tagged fixtures won't be programmed. I never use full mode, so I don't know if there's a way to untag fixtures. U should change the mode of your desk to partial, and remove the movinglights from the scene's you use on your submasters. That's done by using the edit-button (press twice when you're editing a chase!). That allows you to untag the fixtures (by pressing the fixture buttons for more than 5 seconds), now your problem should be gone.

 

A2: That's nearly impossible. My guess would be that the brightness parameter of your MACs is maintained somewhere else (playback X??). When you only raise the submaster, lowering it should bring the dimmer back to 0% again, there's no doubt about that! Maybe someone from Zero know this better than I do??

[DickM]

Wow, thanks for the quick responses everybody… what a superb support group this is!

 

I think I understand now the answers to Q1. The reason I used full mode is so that we can skip forwards (and maybe even backwards) if they jump around in the script (you know amateurs in pantomime!). If I programmed in partial mode, wouldn’t I have a problem if I skipped over a memory that moved the fixtures to a new position – wouldn’t they come pointing at the wrong place? But maybe I misunderstanding the point of Partial mode!

 

Thanks for your suggestions for Q2. I will check when I go back to the desk tonight, but it’s quite possible that I may have been using the fixtures for a general wash in the scene that was being output on Playback X when I brought up the sub with the chase on it. I understand that this would cause the brightness to remain high when I took out the sub – if this is the case, it’s a pity the position and colour doesn’t revert back values from the Playback X scene too.

 

I guess this raises another question then… is there an easy way to edit the scene memory to change the fixture brightness to 0 so they do turn off when I lower the sub?

 

Thanks again,

Dick

[K-Nine]

Colour, Beamshape and Position parameters for fixtures are always mixed Latest Takes Precedence (LTP) which is fundamentally different to how the generic channels and fixture brightness are mixed (HTP).

 

Once you tell an LTP parameter to go to a value, it does and then stays ther until told to go to a different value. There is no concept of retaining a historical list of which playback source told it to go where and when.

 

For example, you output a scene on playback X which turns your MACs red, then raise a submaster which turns them green. The desk only works on the last command which told them to go green.

 

LTP parameters are only triggered by subs when the submaster fader is raised passed the LTP trigger level; there is no trigger on the way down.

 

Between raising the sub and lowering it again, you could have done many other actions which resulted in changing the MACs colour ( eg outputting memories from the playback X, raising other subs, outputting SX buttons (Mambo), outputting palettes, changing the colour using the control wheel).

[DickM]

Yes, I see your point K-Nine. Thanks.

[K-Nine]

Since I have worked on the Frog series of desks since they were first conceived (or should that be spawned ) over 3 and half years ago, I tend to take a lot of the terminology and operation for granted.

 

If there are any other ideas, concepts of terms that you would like explaining, please feel free to post in the relevant forums.

 

We are here to help you get the best from your Frog

[ice]

I think it's a good idea for you to copy some memories. For instance: when you raise the sub, you can step into the next memory, which would be a copy of the previous one, but without the fixtures! This way, when you lower the sub the fixtures would indeed turn off...!

Also, when you copy the 1st memory once more (so now in place 3) and hit that one, the fixtures would also return to their original position. Make sure to use position pallets for these things (check the manual for programming pallets, and program those pallets into your scene's; altering one pallet will result in all scene's updating!) and you'll be in heaven. Okay; you'll have to use 3 scene's but that only more accurate in my opinion, you can easily keep up with what you're actually doing!