Allow fixture swapping.

[John_Schlick]

While using this board on a large US club tour, I encountered clubs where their equipment was far superior to mine. I wanted to run their fixtures to do my show on these days, but I could not.

 

What I wanted to do, was to re-assign the fixture to a new fixture type, and yes, it's fair game to allow it to blow away the pallete information, but WHY of WHY do you also erase that fixture from every queue...

 

If in queue 20, fixture 2 is aimed at pallete position 2... (and I rebuild the pallates for the new fixture 2), then allow me to keep the queue, and aim it at position 2 in queue 20... As part of re-assigning the fixture, ASK me if I want to keep it in the queues. It's that simple. Then I can take over really bright instruments instead of using the crappy ones that I have on tour. (smirk)

 

 

It occurs to me that this desk is aimed at the large club tour market as well as other kinds of markets, but in that market, you hit a WIDe diversity of equipment in the clubs that you want to deal with on the board that has the show, NOt on the clubs board that requires the 3rd 4th and 5th hands at the desk as part of the show.

 

As it was, most of the time, I put the club LD on headset and had him follow my lead. Not the best solution for having unified control.

 

And this can be solved JUST by asking the question as you re-assign the fixture.

 

John.

[K-Nine]

Re-assigning a fixture type after programming memories, submasters and palettes is not a simple operation, when considering the underlying data structures in the desk.

 

Firstly, the desk unassigns (deletes) the original fixture type and therefore removes that fixture's data from the programmed memories, submasters and palettes.

 

It then inserts the new fixture type into the memories,subs and palettes where it was previously programmed.

 

The difference between the parameters in the old and new fixture types may be trivial or may be significant.

 

A desk at this level is not designed to try and make assumptions between the parameters of two different fixture types.

 

That is why the new fixture is inserted with zero brightness and default values for its LTP parameters.

[John_Schlick]

There are two different thoughts going on here...

 

First, let me take the quote... a desk at this level. Um, the guys that I work for bought this desk in order to be able to go out and do a club tour with a reasonable number of instruments. In the club tour environment, there are many many things that come up that any desk ought to be able to handle. Swapping out fixtures is one of them. I've seen you refer to this sort of dialogue in other posts on here. Let me tell you what I encountered on the road. I had house people in a number of clubs tell me that (and I quote from the house of blues orlando) "I've used that desk and it looks like some computer geek designed it without knowing what people really want. It's just a toy." OUCH. Thats not the reputation that you want out there is it? If you don't put in decent features, people will move on to the leprecaun LPX-24 as your competition in the same price range... What I'm saying is that this is a feature that will SELL this desk to touring professionals, if you make it easy to take over a system in someone elses club and do YOUR show then it will become a desk of choice instead of people grudgingly using this desk for that application.

 

"A Desk at this level" is a bad phrase to use. There are others out there building desks, many in the same price range. WHY NOT give the best functionality and be the leader. If you look at the software industry, the people that learned from the leaders, and offered the fatures of the leaders at a lower price now dominate certain markers (specifically in the animation world, but also in the cad world). This is not a "well, we'll have to charge you what they charge for an MA" (which I saw in another post), this is a customer service, and leadership issue.

 

 

 

Now, lets move on and talk about the underlying desk data structure. I have a BS in computer science, so I know how I'd have made it do what you make it do, but I'm probably wrong if I think that thats actually the way that you did it.

 

So, at the point that I build a queue, you have 48 conventional channels, and 12 automated fixtures. IF the automated fixture is pointing to a color pallete, then it should store ONLY a pointer to that pallete, not any real dmx OR channel information. for you to make the comment about data structures, I HAVE to assume that you store a pointer to the pallete for EACH dmx channel in the pallete. BUT, if thats the case, then you use more memory for each queue. (admittedly, it might be faster to process since there is one fewer levels of indirection to process in the update sysle.) Now, there is the fact that the fixtures dmx channels can vary wildly in terms of it's first channel being in the position pallete, and the second being color and the third, etc(from fixture type to fixture type)... so you obviously have some kind of marker in there for each channel telling it what to look up in the pallete information, right? but it's a marker.

 

So, what I'm saying, is that you get to blank the pallete when I swap out the fixture. thats totally fair game. But in the cueue, you leave the marker that says fixture 4 is using the 3rd color pallete for this queue. THEN, I go in and rebuild the pallete for those colors and once the pallete is rebuilt, all the queues will work.

 

John.

[NZ]

John

 

With out wanting to beat around the bush anymore you are obviously not happy with our console. Can I suggest that you contact ACT lighting who are our dealer in the US and arrange for a trade in on your desk.

 

It is obviously the wrong product for you. I am sorry but we are never going to agree with a lot of the things that you are saying. We make a console that is aimed at doing very specific things. As you have a BS in Computing then you should know the costs of writing software. To simply add in features as you suggest to be a market leader is not the way we are structured. We do try and make a living and that means developing new products that we can sell for a profit not simply adding features forever to existing products to make them compete at a higher level. The goal posts in the industry move all the time, we develop product to meet these changes, we also upgrade product to keep it relevant if we can. We give these upgrades away so the payback on the work done is minimal. By developing new products we can stay in business and this allows us to support older products.

 

What you are asking us to do with a basic level console is add features that no one else has. I make no excuses for what the console is nor where it is pitched. It is mean't to address the needs of a broad range of users most of whom are working with limited budgets. I also make no excuse for saying that we are not an MA or Hog level product. If those are the features people want then those are the products that answer their needs. We answer a set of needs for a group of users, we obviously do not meet your needs. I recommend you trade the desk in.

 

As to the particular question you are asking with this post, yes it would be nice to have. We will look at it but it is not going to happen immediatly or perhaps ever.

 

Best

[K-Nine]

For those who seem to have forgotten, some important notes ...

 

These forums have been set up to allow owners and users of Zero 88 products to dicuss issues, bugs, suggestions and comments.

 

This is a community forum. Advice given by non-Zero 88 staff is not official. Zero 88 will accept no responsibility for advice or suggestions posted in this forum by non-Zero 88 staff.

 

We welcome the views and opinions of all visitors to the site. Abusive posts will be removed, and the IP address & username of the offending poster will be blocked.

 

Zero 88 reserves the right to edit or delete any post that is deemed inappropriate to this forum.

[Laubfrosch]

Sorry Kev!!!!

 

I´m getting a little bit angry now!!!!

 

You´re always complaining about the Frogs. NZ just made an real honorable statement as he told "obviously the Frog is the wrong desk for you."

A few of your suggestion were quite interesting, because I haven´t worked with the desks in this way.

 

BUT you ever forgot the relationship between features, quality and price.

You try to change the philosophy which is behind the product. In that case NZ is absolute right. Just sell your Frog and you´ll be a happy guy.

If you´re thinking the Frog is a toy, why did you buy it?

 

Excuse me, the Sirius 250 and 500 were the start of the decreasing reputation of Zero 88. In my point of view the new Zero88 team has turned around this tendency!!!

 

SO Kev, stay on earth or start building your own Lighting Console with all the features you want for a budget price. I can´t take you more than a few weeks, because software implements are SO simple.

 

 

regards

 

Sven

[Haytech]

Franck is right ... It´s a great information forum for users with problems by using the desk.

Additional it gives us (users) a voice to tell about problems and make suggestions of features just sugestions !

 

you shouldn´t flame anyone !

 

 

Sebastian

[lxkev]

"Excuse me, the Sirius 250 and 500 were the start of the decreasing reputation of Zero 88" well in that case...why did u bother implementing cue-line on the illusion...

 

I think the frog has got a lot of usful gear on it!!!! IT REALLY HAS!!!

 

but features missing like, one shot, blind mode, beat control of chase, live edits of speed, control... features which most users would expect from a desk of this price.. r its down fall...

 

nz comment "obviously the Frog is the wrong desk for you." has been said to a few users.....the rest of you zero88 staff...always give good responses to are sugestions...however nz, alway seems a bit negative in his replys to "users" suggestions....

 

i like the fan feature!!!

[K-Nine]

"Excuse me, the Sirius 250 and 500 were the start of the decreasing reputation of Zero 88" well in that case...why did u bother implementing cue-line on the illusion...

 

Although to the untrained eye the Cueline on the Illusion may look very similar to that on the Sirius 250/500, it is different in the fact that it is an exact copy of the Memories Screen displayed in a graphical format. You therefore have the choice of viewing the memory stack in the traditional numeric table format or in the graphical style of the Cueline 8)

 

With the Illusion 500 now having moving light capability, the Cueline has been updated to show separate brightness, colour, beamshape and position tracks which some users find very useful for visualising and understanding complex fades where each attribute has its own fade and transition times.

 

I think the frog has got a lot of usful gear on it!!!! IT REALLY HAS!!!

 

Thank you

 

.. but features missing like, one shot, blind mode, beat control of chase, live edits of speed, control... features which most users would expect from a desk of this price.. r its down fall...

 

Most of these features are scheduled for the next update package; the rest have been noted and will be reviewed when appropriate

 

nz comment "obviously the Frog is the wrong desk for you." has been said to a few users.....the rest of you zero88 staff...always give good responses to are sugestions...however nz, alway seems a bit negative in his replys to "users" suggestions...

 

I will let NZ reply to this comment :evil:

[NZ]

Hi LXKev

 

You and I are obviously never going to agree. If it was me moderating the forum your post would still be up by the way. I have broad shoulders!

 

I have a very clear idea of what the Frog range is for and who the user base is. I did create it although a lot of people did the grunt work in programming it and getting the hardware to work. I know it is a good product, the sales and the regular praise we get for it show this. I have also been involved in lighting both as a tech and a designer to know that one desk will not answer the needs of all users. Therefor if someone has one of our products and is not happy with it I would rather see them trade it in on something that is more suited to their needs. Todate the only people I can remember saying this to are yourself and John. I know where we can and will take the console and if it is not right for you I would rather you changed platforms. If you don't like that as a business philosophy then I don't know what to offer you.

 

As to not listening we do listen and many of the things now in the console come from comments on this forum. To say that we don't listen and that we are not putting one shots, beat control nor live speed edits in is untrue. Several times now I have said that the new software will have this.

 

I think at this point I will leave it except to say again that I am sorry if my attitude offends you.

 

Graham

[K-Nine]

Moderation: The remainder of this thread concerning the frog updates package has been moved to the Frog Updates Forum.