Tony Berry Posted April 14, 2007 Report Posted April 14, 2007 Having had the 10.8 software installed I now have a major problem plotting a show. Sometimes the tracking works and at other times it doesnt. When you take out a channel fader the tracking wont recognise the channel change and you get the message "Nothing to Record" When I play back the show all the cues are nothing like the ones plotted. Previous to plot a Blackout I just dropped the Grand master leaving all faders and submasters set and then pressed Record. Worked with version10.4. Now with version 10.8 it doesnt work and it is impossible to get a blackout even after returning all faders to zero and pressing record. Play the blackout cue and all lights from previous cue are still on. The only solution i have found to correct the problem was to cancel the tracking before I record a cue by moving the A/B Playback masters. Am I the only one to have this problem? What is the solution. Is version 10.8 full of problems? Please advise and help. With version 10.4 I never had a problem. I also now have problems with running two Mac 250's on submasters for effects. Set them with the submaster ready for the next effect. Play a cue and they just go to the home positioon with lamp at full brightness. Only solution is to plot them in the cue. This is not the solution when one wants to run a show "Live" without plotting the effect into the cue.
Tony Berry Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Posted April 16, 2007 Came across another problem this weekend. If you are using the desk for a play and the cast suddenly jump half a page and you have used the tracking and you need to jump a cue or more then what you get on stage looks nothing like what you wanted. ie. if you are in cue 20 and in cue 21 a light goes out and another comes on and you have to jump to cue 22 then at cue 22 neither of these two lights will change.It is now necessary to tag every Generic channel before recording the cue.I can see no advantage with the tracking feature. The explanation in the release notes under Replaying Memories 1.5 makes no sense. It gives the impression that a problem has been solved whereas it should read that there is now a problem jumping cues. The explanation is ambiguous. In previous versions all channels generic were tagged when recorded and if a channel went to zero in one cue it then was at zero in the next cue if not recorded. Now this is not the case when a cue is jumped.
Paul Posted April 16, 2007 Report Posted April 16, 2007 Hi Tony, It looks like the following issues were causing you some problems, since Peter *kindly* upgraded your desk from 10.4 to 10.8 on a recent training day: - When replaying submasters, tag states are set to those from the submaster. This makes it difficult to build up looks from Submasters and the Presets for recording into memories. We have logged the following Frog Reference number to provide an option to configure the replay-tagging behaviour: Frog Reference 5583 - Option to disable, add-to, or replace tags when when replaying Memories, Submasters & SXs. - If memories are programmed using moving lights, the LTP channels track from Memory Zero (Home values) for earlier memories than when they are first used. The following Frog Reference number will allow this behaviour to be disabled: Frog Reference 5586 - Option to disable tracking from Memory Zero. - Lowering the Grand Master (or pressing Blackout) does not cause active brightness channels to be tagged. This problem has been given a new Frog Reference number: Frog Reference 5587 - Lowering the Grand Master or pressing Blackout should tag all brightness channels. I can't make any promises about when a new version will be available I'm afraid, however you may find version 10.4 easier to get along with until the new version is out. Version 10.4 can be downloaded HERE. Regards, Paul.
Morn Posted April 16, 2007 Report Posted April 16, 2007 Frog Reference 5586 - Option to disable tracking from Memory Zero. This would be great for a live and disco guy like me...it really disturbs when you "Go" a new cue and you have to recall color, beamshape & and movement from palettes or subs every time... So GO FR5586, GO :-) So, if you don't start drinking...I'm gonna leave!!!
Tony Berry Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Posted April 16, 2007 Many thanks Paul with the help you gave in sorting out the problems I was having with 10.8. There was also the matter of every button becoming a GO button that you found. Clearly this also needs sorting. I will stick with 10.4 until you manage to get a revised version with all the problems sorted that we discussed. It should be possible to make up a lighting state from a mixture of faders and submasters and also an existing cue without finding that each cancels out the previous tagging or that you have to move the A master to tag everything. When plotting a busy show by the end of an evening the brain gets tired and its easy to overlook moving the A master. The end result could be having to spend further time replotting and trying to explain to an irate director that doesnt understand the technical aspects of plotting a show. So many actors and directors just think all we have to do before each show is push a button and it all happnes. They dont see the hours of planning, rigging and focussing that take place before you reach the technical rehearsal
Litegod Posted May 23, 2007 Report Posted May 23, 2007 So how is everyone liking 10.8? Is it working well at this point. I just got done with some projects, and was considering the upgrade...
amillar Posted May 29, 2007 Report Posted May 29, 2007 I have just discovered that this upgrade is available and am interested in people's comments on 10.8 but unless i am missing something there is a distinct lack of interest/comment on this forum around this version... I have only just got used to 10.4 (which is great) but I don't want to jump in if there are issues - it does seem much more complicated in terms of tracking. Andrew.
Dave Posted June 12, 2007 Report Posted June 12, 2007 Hi, I'm not a Frog guru so forgive me if I'm being stupid. I've just upgraded my Fat Frog to 10.8 and I'm coming to the conclusion that I hate tracking! I accept that it is good in some situations (eg theatre), when it is very powerful to record memories that just have the changes to a state in them, but still get the full state based on everything that's gone before when you output them. However, if you are busking a show and, for example, want to have some memories that affect some movers, and other memories that affect other movers, which you can replay in a random order, then the last thing you want is any interaction between these different memories. Tracking forces this on you, which seems to partly defeat the concept of partial programming. Trying to do it with palettes or subs isn't ideal for various reasons. I would much rather use memories as it's easy to select the one you want from the stack, where you see the list of everything, and then replay it with the go button. Can I make a big request please to have the facility to disable tracking in partial mode added to the next software release. And if anyone knows a workaround or can show me what I'm doing wrong, please reply asap. Otherwise I might have to go back to 10.4. Thanks, Dave
Paul Posted June 12, 2007 Report Posted June 12, 2007 Hi Dave, You're not alone in disliking the tracking in 10.8. We already have the following logged: Frog Reference 5586 - Option to disable tracking from Memory Zero. In the next release of the Frog Series software when we implement this, it will probably be a 3-way option in SuperUser: - Tracking Off - Tracking On - Tracking On from Memory Zero Can't give you a date I'm afraid, it's up to our sales team on how they prioritise development effort... Paul.
Dave Posted June 12, 2007 Report Posted June 12, 2007 Paul, Thanks for the reply - I'm glad I'm not the only one with concerns about tracking. Can I make a couple of suggestions: At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, I think it was rather unwise to introduce a feature (like tracking) that has a major effect on the way the console operates without also including the option to disable it. I do find it quite shocking that you didn't put this facility in the 10.8 software - it would have saved you the extra work needed to add it in later. It's also worth consulting the users regarding significant changes. This forum provides the ideal place to do this... I'm not saying that I dislike tracking, but for some applications it is not the right way of doing things. In other situations it could be yet another factor that makes the Frog range comparable to vastly more expensive consoles (ie a good thing) Dave
Anthony Berry Posted June 20, 2007 Report Posted June 20, 2007 I have tried 10.8 and found problems. My advise is stick with 10.4. I recorded a show and when I played it back it was nothing like i thought I was recording. I have now got 10.4 back on the desk. Until the bugs and problems get sorted my advise is leave well alone.
sicole Posted July 30, 2007 Report Posted July 30, 2007 Hi I need to reload my OS with version 10.4. I know 10.8 is the updated version but reading the issues with tracking, I don't want it. Is there a link to older software releases? Many thanks Si backSTAGE Theatre Supplies LTD Specialists in Lighting / Staging / Consultancy
Paul Posted July 31, 2007 Report Posted July 31, 2007 There is a link to 10.4 in the Software Release Announcement.
ftorbert Posted August 25, 2007 Report Posted August 25, 2007 I agree. The new version makes programming much too complicated especially the brightness tagging. We are having problems with lights showing up in sub-masters that where not programmed is so I am going back and editing many of the subs and ques. I hate to loose some of the other features like tracking and patching features but the programming is just too time consuming. I also will be reloading 10.4
Kirkup_xp Posted August 31, 2007 Report Posted August 31, 2007 Version 10.8 does provide fully functional tracking capabilities and its true that some users have found the software a little difficult to use. We have made version 10.4 available to users should they wish to downgrade, due to the feedback received on version 10.8. We are aware of the comments received and will address them in any future software releases for the range. Please don't let this discourage you from using version 10.8 on your shows - with a bit of time to learn the software changes, the desk becomes much more powerful. If you have any questions or queries on the tracking functionality. please feel free to post them here and we'll do our best to help you out. When using tracking, please remember: -You are programming the *changes* to each memory, not the whole scene - this relies on "tags" which can be displayed using the WHEEL GROUP button in the Output Window. -If no value has been programmed for a parameter, it will track from memory -- (0) - therefore, it will be at its default value until told otherwise. This will be optional in the next release, as will Tracking itself (Frog Reference 5586). -If you replay a submaster, it loads the tag states from that submaster. In the next release this will be configurable, so that it can be disabled or be set to "add" mode where submasters will be able to add onto the state on stage, to aid building looks using submasters (Frog Reference 5583). -Lowering the Grand Master or pressing Blackout doesn't set the tags to record a blackout - this will be fixed in the next release. For now, you must manually tag each channel at 0 (Frog Reference 5587). Peter Kirkup
ftorbert Posted September 8, 2007 Report Posted September 8, 2007 Thank you for this information. I look forward to the next release. We use the bull frog in a church where the level of the operator is such that teaching them to tag every recorded que is a issue. thanks again
nighteyes Posted September 9, 2007 Report Posted September 9, 2007 The tagging of generic channels gives me a freedom i previously didn't have. For one thing, it allows me to keep the lights on stage lit so other technicians can do their job while i program my show and not record their working lights. Also tracking really helps programming en escpecially making adjustments far easier. i'm definitely sticking with 10.8. eagerly awaiting further updates. if one million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
diecastbox Posted September 25, 2007 Report Posted September 25, 2007 Hiya all. I have to say that I find the tracking feature and the need to tag generic channels totally unneccessary because when you are programming you want to be able to tell the desk what you want in states and chases not have the desk assume it knows what you want and confuse the issue giving you all sorts of strange results you don't want. We are reprogramming usually every day because that is the nature of our venue and have struggled for four weeks with the upgrade before deciding it is just too much hard work having the desk "help" you and have reverted back to 10.4 without tracking to retain our sanity.
Anthony Berry Posted September 25, 2007 Report Posted September 25, 2007 Having tried 10.8 I found it caused too many problems. Peter Kirkup is quite wrong to imply that it is the users that are not capable of using this software by saying operators have found it difficult. It is the software itself that has the problems. When did any user ask for tracking of generic channels? What we asked for was an inhibit function and ability to lock the whole desk including the manual faders. Yes the colours used on 10.8 are better but when you have to manually tag every generic channel and not be able to use the grand master to programme a blackout there has got to be a fault with the software. Also it doesnt allow the operator to use submasters to programme groups of channels into the memory and when one submaster is raised it untags a previous submaster so multiples of submasters cancel each other out. I still think that the simple ways of programming are clearly the best and to introduce problems in the name of progress is unhelpful. Also it doent allow moving lights to be programmed onto submasters as raising a submaster to move a moving head intop position ready for use again causes all sorts of problems. Thus it doesnt allow an operator to run a show "live" with preset beamnshapes colour and position of heads in submasters.
torch1972 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Posted October 2, 2007 I have just reloaded 10.4 to my fat frog because of this tracking problem. I was trying to programmme a chase and 10.8 would put the last cue from the playback fade into every step of the chase. i tried moving the channel fades up and down and to zero, i made sure there was no cue or a backout cue in the playback fade and YES the playback was at zero but still the software recorded unwanted channels to my chase. The only solution was to reload 10.4. While I'm here having to tag channels when you are reprogramme submaster, WHAT A PAIN!!!!!!!!!! Give us an upgrade without tag generic channels please!!!
Paul Posted October 8, 2007 Report Posted October 8, 2007 We have added the following to the list of tagging/tracking improvements for the next release: Frog Reference 5590 - Add setup option to always record all brightness channels (as was the default behaviour in versions before 10.8).
amillar Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Paul - sounds good - is there a target date or timeframe for the next release? Thanks, Andrew.
djc007 Posted October 26, 2007 Report Posted October 26, 2007 It should be possible to make up a lighting state from a mixture of faders and submasters and also an existing cue without finding that each cancels out the previous tagging or that you have to move the A master to tag everything. When plotting a busy show by the end of an evening the brain gets tired and its easy to overlook moving the A master. The end result could be having to spend further time replotting and trying to explain to an irate director that doesnt understand the technical aspects of plotting a show. I completly agree. It has become a chore to make sure when copying several subs as a look to another you have to move the A master to tag everything. Also when creating a chase, transfering it into a sub and creating a new chase, one of the states appears in every step in that new chase. Beginning to annoy everyone I work with. Will be on 10.4 until these bugs gets fixed.
Paul Posted December 18, 2007 Report Posted December 18, 2007 Version 10.9 of the Frog series software has been released, which includes additional setup options to allow the tagging and tracking behaviour to be fully configured, plus a number of other improvements. CLICK HERE for details. This topic is now closed - if there are any issues in 10.9, please feel free to open a new topic.
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