How do I "capture" values...?

[chrisparry_LD]

Hi..

I'm an American working in Bangkok ian a small theatre with a BullFrog Desk. The operator is Thai and speaks little English, I'm English and speak little Thai. Add that to the fact that I've never worked on a Zero88 Bullforg desk before.. (I'm used to Obsession and Strnd Theatre Desks..) and you can imagine the problems.. :cry:

 

I want to do something simple (to me) but the operator seems to be making it so difficult... and I don't know any other way.. (We are running 2 moving lights and the rest are conventionals..)

 

Imagine a simple cue structure of Q1-Q20.

 

In Q3 I want to move my moving lights to a new position and color, and keep them there through (and including) Q 10. (Then they can go back to the old position/color).

 

How can I "capture" those new ML values, and put them into Q3-Q10.

 

I know the desk will not "Record to Track". It seems to be of the "Cue Only" system.

 

Right now the operator records the new look for Q3. The he calls up Q4 on stage (whence the ML's move back to their old settings..) then he keys in all the new values AGAIN, and finally records Q4.. and so on.. and so on.. to Q10.

 

You can imagine how long THIS takes!!

 

There MUST be a quicker/easier way. Please, tell me what it is, (in words of one syllable please), and just maybe I can tell him.

 

Chris Parry

LD

[Paul]

There MUST be a quicker/easier way. Please, tell me what it is, (in words of one syllable please), and just maybe I can tell him.

Put the desk in Partial Programming Mode (SuperUser->DeskSetup->ProgramMode). Then only LTP parameters that you 'tag' (yellow fixture LEDs flashing) will be recorded in each cue. HTP (brightness) parameters are ALWAYS recorded.

[chrisparry_LD]

Does this mean that the LTP (which I guess means Latest Takes Precedence) parameters will stay put (captured), even when he brings the next cue onstage..?

 

Could you maybe tell me the button-pushing steps to do an example of what you mean..? Sorry to sound thick, but I'm not a console operator, but I may have to explain it to one...

 

ChrisP

[Paul]

Hi Chris,

 

Does this mean that the LTP (which I guess means Latest Takes Precedence) parameters will stay put (captured), even when he brings the next cue onstage..?

Yes. If an LTP parameter is not programmed (tagged) in a cue, then it will not change from it's current output value when you play that cue.

 

I'll try and keep the description brief here and skip over some of the finer points, just so you can get started with it. Once you've understood the basic concept, hopefully the detailed description in the manual will start to make sense.

 

I should point out that the way partial programming works has changed significantly between release 9.8 and release 10.0 software. If your desk is running release 9.8 (or previous), it's probably best to leave it at that until you've grasped the concepts of partial programming, before you move on to release 10.0.

 

When you're programming in partial mode...

 

- The desk will automatically 'tag' any parameters you change with the wheels.

 

- If any parameters of a fixture are tagged, then the yellow LED in the fixture selection button will flash.

 

- When you hit Program, only tagged parameters are recorded. Hence when you play back the thing you've recorded, only the parameters that you tagged will change.

 

- You can toggle the tagged state of fixtures by holding down the fixture selection button for a couple of seconds until the yellow LED starts/stops flashing.

 

- When you hit Program, the desk will (just after it's recorded your data) automatically clear the tag states so that you're starting with a clean sheet ready for the next thing you're recording.

 

That's about all you need to get going, let us know if you have any further questions.

 

Paul.

[chrisparry_LD]

Paul..

 

Thanks. I think I understand that the board will only update tagged items.. but how can you HOLD those tagged items thru a range of cues and record them in..?

 

ChrisP

[Paul]

Hi Chris,

 

If I understand you correctly, then what you're asking for is "tracking", where the desk will output the tracked value when you play a cue, regardless of the order that you play back the cues in. This is a feature which we are working on now for inclusion in a future software update.

 

If I have misunderstood your question, then please can you give a bit more detail on what you're trying to do.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul.

[chrisparry_LD]

Hi Paul...

 

I am a theatre designer.. so I probably don't think "BullFrog".. and this particular BullFrog is installed in a Theatre in Bangkok. I know what I want to do is called "tracking" on other desks.. and I know the Bullfrog doesn't do that yet,,,

BUT - specifically this is what I am trying to do. It seems (to me) such a simple and common request, but seems to require SUCH a time-consuming operation on the BullFrog desk to make it happen I can't believe there isn't an easier way.. yet no-one can tell me the key-strokes to make it easier..

 

 

I have 3 moving lights (and many conventionals..).

 

1. Imagine a simple existing cue structure of Q1-Q20 where my ML's are used (in some way) in all Q's.

 

2. In Q3 I want to move my moving lights to a new position, color and gobo, and keep (record) them there through (and including) Q 10. (Then they can go back to the old position/color/gobo).

 

 

A simple (and common) request of a designer.. yes?

 

(Btw, the cues will always be played back in the order Q1-Q20 for the show, BUT I may want the operator to show me a cue live onstage in any order during a tech rehearsal..)

 

So, Right now this is what happens when I make my request.. The operator bring up Q3 onstage, changes the various multiple parameters of the 3 ML's to the new "look" I want, then "records" the new look for Q3 (or whatever "record" is called on the BullFrog).

 

Then he calls up Q4 on stage (whence all the ML's move back to their OLD position/color/gobo..) Then he has to key in all the new numerical parameters/values of the moving lights AGAIN that I asked for when I modified Q3 (assuming he can remember exactly what they were), and finally "records" Q4.. and so on.. and so on.. to Q10.

 

You can only imagine how long this takes...

 

PLEASE tell me there's a quicker/easier way.. before I slit my wrists waiting for this to happen.. :-)

 

Btw, I used to live in Wales.. and visited Cwmbran.. years ago!

 

Cheers

ChrisP

[Kirkup_xp]

Hi ChrisP

 

Hope I can help a little.

 

One option would be (and bear with me, this may seem a bit backwards) to 'unprogram' the moving lights from cues 4 to 19.

 

The first step to do this is to ensure the desk is in Partial mode. This is done by entering Super User and going to Desk Setup, Program Mode and toggling to Partial.

 

By removing any existing programming of the moving lights in those cues, you instruct the desk not to make any changes to the lights when those cues are activated. To remove the lights from programming, hold down the fixture select buttons until the yellow LEDs go on (instead of flashing).

 

Now if you re-record the cues, the moving lights will be removed from the cues. You will notice (on the monitor) that the data in the columns C B P has disappeared for cues 4 to 19 (assuming you re-recorded all of them). This is another way of checking that the moving light data has been removed.

 

Now running sequentially from cue 3 to cue 4 will not alter the moving lights. Because the desk has no data for the moving lights, it leaves them alone when the cue is activated.

 

Your operator could pre-empt these changes by using blind mode (While in the Memories screen, press Preview, then Edit) to remove the fixtures whilst leaving the output on stage as it was. This will ensure that when you come to edit live, the fixtures don't return to their originally programmed position, saving you (the designer) the stress of having to deal with the fixtures being in the incorrect cue throughout the sequence.

 

If the cue list was programmed in Partial mode originally, you would only have had to update Cue3 and the cue structure would have remained intact until Cue 20.

 

I hope the above is clear and makes sense. If not, let me know and i'll try and clarify for you. Sorry its not quite a "1 thru 3 @ cue last" solution, but once you're used to programming the desk in Partial mode, it becomes almost second nature.

 

Best of luck

 

Peter

[chrisparry_LD]

Peter.. many thanks for the help..! Appreciated.

 

I will TRY to communicate this to my Thai operator (who has the BEST of intentions and attitude.. btw! - but limited English. Is there anyone in Thailand reading this by chance..??!)

 

But, if he does not understand your text.. could you possibly give me a key-stroke-by-keystroke example..?

 

Cheers

ChrisP

[Kirkup_xp]

The first step to do this is to ensure the desk is in Partial mode.

This is done by entering Super User (hold down +, hold down - and press ENTER)

Scroll to Desk Setup, then press ENTER

Scroll to Program Mode and press ENTER

Use the arrow keys to toggle the value in the field to Partial.

Press ENTER to confirm and then scroll to Exit Desk Setup. Enter. Exit Super User. Enter.

 

*Now select cue 4 (the first of the cues which has excess programming).

Press EDIT

Select the fixtures.

Press and HOLD each of the fixture buttons until the yellow LED stops flashing

Release the fixture button

Press EDIT and then ENTER to confirm you wish to overwrite the existing cue.

 

Repeat from the * above for cues 5 to 19. Don't worry when carrying out the above that the fixtures will go to their old programming values when you hit 'edit'. This is normal, as you are loading in the existing programming. As long as the yellow LED is not flashing (it will be constantly on) then the fixtures will not be programmed into the cue when you hit EDIT the second time.

 

 

For future reference, the sequence when programming for the first time is even simpler...

-Set the desk into Partial mode (this should be done at the start of the show, whilst patching the desk, ideally)

-Set up the first cue (the yellow LED will flash, to indicate that something on the fixtures has changed)

-Press program

-Make the changes required in order to obtain cue 2

-Assuming nothing has changed in the fixtures, the yellow LED will be constant and the fixtures will not be programmed

-Press Program

 

 

Now, if you wish to change the fixture in cue 1 and 2, simply edit cue 1 and the changed fixture data will track through to cue 2. Once you start getting the hang of it, this programming method is very quick and easy.

 

(Advanced lesson below... feel free to ignore it)

 

Lets say, for example, you make the change then in cue 3 to a new position. Pressing Program will record a new cue, with the new position in it. Now go back to cue 1 and change the colour. The data will filter through and cues 1 to 3 will all run in the newly programmed colour. If, however, you had 'tagged' the colour attributes in cue 3, they would have remained static. Tagging is effectively telling the desk whether or not to store a single attribute in the cue. To change the tag status of an attribute, simply nudge the wheel a little. Hold down WHEELGROUP to check whether a parameter is tagged. Tagged parameter will be displayed with numeric values, whilst untagged parameters will display ---. To untag a paramter, nudge the wheel with WHEELGROUP held down.

 

I should add that this functionality has recently changed and you should ensure that the desk is running the latest release of software, (10.4), which is available here.

 

Hope this helps.

[chrisparry_LD]

MANY thanks Peter..!

 

I will pass this on to my Thai operator, and try it myself on my next visit to Bangkok..

 

Cheers

ChrisP