Untagging

[ice]

With the new v10 software it becomes a drag to untag fixtures everytime they get autotagged by the console. It slows down programming and here too the 1 second wait time is way too long.

 

Maybe the "clear" button could be used as it is used on the Pearl? Pressing clear once (not holding it) cleares current tag information and sets all fixture to being untagged. The single button press isn't used after all; clearing memories and submaster can stil be done by holding the button for a while.

[sp]

Completely agree. Used v10 for the first time on a big show on Wednesday, and this became apparent immediately. Maybe something like hold F3/F4 and the fixture button to fully untag it...

 

sp

[nighteyes]

yes, this is a nice suggestion. I agree also

[Paul]

I agree it would be nice to have a quick way of clearing all the tags. Not sure about the exact button though. The Clear button on the Frogs has a very specific function, would it mess with people's minds to give it another? Although if as you say the precedent is already set on other desks, maybe it wouldn't be so bad after all?

 

Using a Function button with the fixture button would only untag the one fixture. Plus aren't you all already having enough trouble remembering what the different function buttons do? :-)

 

Some other combinations that might work:

 

WheelGroup (Shift) + Clear : Clear all tags

 

WheelGroup (Shift) + Home : Clear tags for selected fixtures

 

Since after all, the WheelGroup button is now the magic untagging button, maybe either of these might feel more natural / be easier to remember?

[Spotter]

I agree it would be nice to have a quick way of clearing all the tags. Not sure about the exact button though. The Clear button on the Frogs has a very specific function, would it mess with people's minds to give it another? Although if as you say the precedent is already set on other desks, maybe it wouldn't be so bad after all?

 

Using a Function button with the fixture button would only untag the one fixture. Plus aren't you all already having enough trouble remembering what the different function buttons do? :-)

 

Some other combinations that might work:

 

WheelGroup (Shift) + Clear : Clear all tags

 

WheelGroup (Shift) + Home : Clear tags for selected fixtures

 

Since after all, the WheelGroup button is now the magic untagging button, maybe either of these might feel more natural / be easier to remember?

that sounds good, but the combo alone should be enough to trigger it (so no 1 second wait).

[ice]

No, no more combinations please! A single press is prefered cause every combination requires 2 hands instead of one!

[Spotter]

No, no more combinations please! A single press is prefered cause every combination requires 2 hands instead of one!

I can do about every combination with 1 hand.....

 

And furthermore, I feel (but please correct me if I'm wrong) that using the wheelgroup for all untagging makes the desk easier to remember (not exactly what I wanted to say, 'overzichtelijk' is the word in dutch, and Ice will understand)

[ice]

Last weekend I provided some of my collegues with a training on the Frog consoles because they didn't know much about it. Everytime when an action involved 2 actions or buttons it went wrong... "uhhh, okay so I press this and then... ehhhh... what was the other thing to do?"

 

It doens't make the desk more overzichtelijk 8) cause these functions are only documented and not written as a label, "clear" is. With all these new updates and features it's almost necessary to respray the entire frontpanel and place some new labels on there.

[K-Nine]

If you want all this additional functionality then combinations of key presses are inevitable.

 

New commands and functionality have to be designed around the existing controls on the front panel of the desk.

 

Single key presses and in several cases holding down keys and combinations of keys already have defined operations.

 

By converting the wheel group button to a 'shift' key in version 10 software we have opened up a large number of possibilities for new commands.

 

Some of these new commands have been used as part of the implementation of partial programming down to individual fixture parameter level, a feature which people have been asking for consistently for quite a while.

 

We have implemented many new features (often as a direct result of user feedback) since Version 1 software was released over four and a half years ago.

 

Not every new or modified function can have a simple interface for the reasons described above.

 

I am sure that the majority of users given the choice would rather have these features with a slightly 'clunky' interface than not have the feature at all

[ice]

True, but the single "clear" press hasn't been implemented yet, so I don't see why it shouldn't be. In my opinion it's much easier to remember because the clear button has the same functionality on other consoles and it'll still have the functions it did in previous software versions. I don't see why one would want to clear just the selected fixtures; you select the fixture you want to record, alter things and save: accidentally tagging other fixtures can be solved by clearing all tags and reselecting the fixtures you want to program.

 

As for tagging; I find the new autotagging functions not as useful as you might think they would be. Submasters containing no tagged fixtures should not release tags of already tagged fixtures. Same goes for the memorystack: try editing a chase and inserting a new step, sometimes tagging gets lost for the previous step and the chase becomes all f*cked up.

 

Can't wait to see the tracking implementations, but for now I the new updates need some work in handling and operations for them to work as they should. Gook work though!

[Spotter]

I do see your point Ice, and you definitely have more experience on the Frog range then me, but why would you take a Fixture button (in this case the Clear button) out of the fixture part of the console? That way you end up having buttons for one 'function group' all around the console. And we are already using the wheel group button for untagging fixtures, why not keep it that way?

 

Another point is, if you have tagged your fixtures right, and want to delete something to put them there, or any other reason. By deleting that memory/submaster you might actually end up untagging your fixtures as well.

 

On a more personal note: het is niks persoonlijks.

[ice]

The point of keeping functions within the approriate section of the desk is a nice one, but the combination wheelgroup + clear already disregards that since it uses the clear button.

 

Why not implement both options so we can all be happy :twisted:

 

En inderdaad niks persoonlijks hoor, iedereen operate op een eigen manier natuurlijk!

[pollywog]

... no more press and hold and wait one second actions :-(

 

this is wasting too much time :-(

 

by the way pressing e.g. color and button of channel number one can never be done with one hand on a bull frog.

[ice]

That reminds me: holding the colour button for > 1 sec. sets the LCD to the wheel mode. That way you can't see the pallet info anymore, a bit annoying having to release the button after 1 sec because I wanted to view that info for a few different fixtures.

[Spotter]

Ice, I think we both made our points clear and we won't get any further. I guess it's just wait and see.

 

pollywog: I wasn't talking about pressing colour and channel 1 with one hand, but more like [Wheel Group]+[Clear] etc.

[Paul]

That reminds me: holding the colour button for > 1 sec. sets the LCD to the wheel mode. That way you can't see the pallet info anymore, a bit annoying having to release the button after 1 sec because I wanted to view that info for a few different fixtures.

 

Not sure I follow you here. What "pallet info" are you trying to look at while you're holding down the colour button?

 

Ice, I think we both made our points clear and we won't get any further. I guess it's just wait and see.

 

There's no point repeating arguments, however constructive criticism and challenging each others ideas is what this forum is all about. We want to make sure if we implement a new feature that it works the way the majority want. Keep discussing by all means if you have something new to add

[ice]

Not sure I follow you here. What "pallet info" are you trying to look at while you're holding down the colour button?

 

The actual pallet number currently active is shown on the LCD as Pxx, but after a while it skips to displaying the wheel mode, if you want to view the pallet output the only option is to release and press it again. Not exactly sure what I was using it for though :? I just remembered it was irritating me

[Paul]

You can see the Pxx palette number on the wheel LCD without holding down the Colour/Beamshape/Position buttons. If you're wanting to cross-reference this with the palettes shown on the monitor screen, then simply lock the monitor screen on palettes.

 

Holding Colour/Beamshape/Position has always (since the wheel edit modes were introduced) changed the wheel LCD to showing the wheel edit modes. The only difference in V10 is that there is now a 1s delay on this.

[ice]

You can see the Pxx palette number on the wheel LCD without holding down the Colour/Beamshape/Position buttons. If you're wanting to cross-reference this with the palettes shown on the monitor screen, then simply lock the monitor screen on palettes.

 

Holding Colour/Beamshape/Position has always (since the wheel edit modes were introduced) changed the wheel LCD to showing the wheel edit modes. The only difference in V10 is that there is now a 1s delay on this.

 

Ok, fine.. it's not that big of a deal anyway.

[Paul]

Hi ice,

 

With the new v10 software it becomes a drag to untag fixtures everytime they get autotagged by the console. It slows down programming

As for tagging; I find the new autotagging functions not as useful as you might think they would be. Submasters containing no tagged fixtures should not release tags of already tagged fixtures. Same goes for the memorystack

It's just occurred to me that you might have answered your own question here You may be able to change your way of working slightly when programming (this is assuming you're programming things without including the fixture brightness):

 

1. Raise a submaster containing only the fixture brightness parameters. This will clear all the tags.

2. Set the look you want.

3. Lower the submaster fader.

4. Hit Record.

 

If you change your mind half way through and need to clear all the tags, you can always just quickly lower and raise the submaster fader.

 

How does this work for you? I'm not saying we won't ever implement a button press to quickly clear all the tags, but the method above might help you in the meantime.

 

Paul.

 

edit: speeling :oops:

[ice]

Yeah I figured that one out myself, for clearing it works great since I lower the sub anyway. Doens't work for chases though, tagging gets messed up when you tag different attributes / fixtures in each step of the chase. It seems to remember only the last tagging information stored in the chase, using that information throughout the entire chase, is that about right?

[Paul]

It seems to remember only the last tagging information stored in the chase, using that information throughout the entire chase, is that about right?

That's about right!

[ice]

I think that's part of my problems!

 

Suppose your creating a chase: first a gobo flip, then a colour change, colour changes back and gobo flips again. You would 2 steps for the 2 gobo positions and 2 for the different colours. Say we want to program this without brightness being recorded, so we place the brightness on a submaster.

 

Programming step 1: gobo gets tagged, lower sub and record

Programming step 2: gobo get tagged, lower sub and record

Programming step 3: colour gets tagged, lower sub and record

(raising sub again dicards tagging info)

Programming final step: colour gets tagged, lower sub and record: finish creating the chase.

 

Console gets tagging parameters from the final step and uses those for tagging and as a result of that the first two steps are lost. Is this correct? And how about after recording a step: does the console untag everything too? Think you see the problems I'm having with (auto-)tagging functions

[Paul]

This problem may go away once you can have the brightness up without recording it:

 

Frog Reference 5539 - Ability to tag brightness and tracking for the memory stack.

 

Edit: just found an old topic discussing the same issue, CLICK HERE.

 

The option to configure the replay-tagging behaviour has also been logged:

 

Frog Reference 5583 - Option to disable, add-to, or replace tags when when replaying Memories, Submasters & SXs.