Partial Memory Recording

[K-Nine]

Hi All,

 

I have set this discussion up to talk specifically about partial memory recording issues.

 

As I see it, there are 4 levels of recording that can take place on the console :

 

- All (Full Mode)

- Fixture level

- Attribute level

- Parameter level

 

The existing software does the first 2. The choice of the others will have a major impact on the user interfaces and how we can represent the data.

 

The method for recording partial data on the Frog desks is as described, ie if you change a fixture parameter, it will get tagged and all its parameters will be recorded into the memory/submaster data.

 

Recording down to attribute level rather than fixture level would seem a reasonable request and could fit in nicely with the existing front panel and user interface philosophy (cf partial homing of fixtures).

 

The main problem is not with how to record partial data down to various levels (fixture, attribute or even individual channels) but with making it easy for the user to be able to review the data afterwards to determine exactly what he has recorded, especially if he wishes to modify it later.

 

On a fixture level this is quite simple, when you edit a memory or submaster, the fixtures which were tagged and recorded in the data will be indicated by the yellow LEDs flashing in their respective fixture buttons; it is then easy to add or remove fixtures from the data as required.

 

So, the question is :

 

Which do you guys want and need ?

[Laubfrosch]

Hi all,

 

first of all i think it´s a great thing to arrange the partial mode more partial. .

 

I read through the posts and got an idea. what about lighting the recorded attribute button like colour, beamshape when the edit button is pushed for the actual memory. And also blinking LED for each Fixture which is included in the memory or chase.

 

Perhaps this helps while working without an external VGA monitor.

 

 

with a from germany

Laubfrosch

[JCF SECC]

Let me start by saying that I know nothing about programming. I love the palettes but hate that I can't choose just some of the options in the beamshape menu. It would be nice to record just the focus or litho wheel position instead of all the attributes. Would this be possible in future upgrades or is my head in the clouds?

[GLX]

Would it be possible when a scenes from subs or memory stack is being played back live that the flash buttons light up,to tell you which generic channels are in use, so if the scene has to be edited it`s easier to see where they are.

 

When using the monitor,the faders from 1 to 48 should show what DMX channels are patched to them.

 

Can we start to name the shows both on screen & when they are saved to disk instead of wondering what the duck is show 1,2,3 etc.....

More whinging as I find things!. :wink:

[Lekengard]

How do i do transparent values ???

For ex. if i want a fader with just strobe.........

[litux]

first, sorry for my spain-english...

 

Record by channel.

When i call a memory with only beamshape atribute saved, all the beamshape channels change...

for example:

I have one mac 500 with one rotation gobo rotating at 20%... if i only

want adding a strobe effect with this gobo at same rotation ... i cannot

call a pallete (or memory) with only strobe effect because the gobo and rotation (focus, iris, etc..) disapear... i think the unique way is record by channel

 

Shape generator

Are there any method for record (to memory or pallete) only the shape

without position for call this at any position. ?

In avolites consoles you can save only a shape on a memory fader and call this when you want...

 

Chase step on a submaster

when i push the step button (for one manually change chase in the submaster section) all the chase i have in the submaster section change at same time...

can you make flash button make the same to step button ???

 

sorry one more time for my patetical english...

[litux]

Partial Recording by channel

Proposed method:

 

With the scroller you can move parameter level down to "0" dmx value

and put it to "--" this parameters not included into memories or palettes and no changed when you call this memory

 

 

I don't know if this method is possible but ...

[Paul]

This would be a good way of telling the desk that you didn't want something recorded. However it might cause you problems when recording a look. The last thing that the desk output before the wheel was moved to '--' (signalling not recorded) would have been 0. Which depending on your fixture, could be lamp off, shutter closed, reset fixture or something else undesirable.

 

When playing back the memory/submaster/sx/palette, agreed the channel would be ignored. However in the following situations, would you want channels flagged as '--' to assume their HOME positions instead:

 

- When editing a memory/submaster/sx

- When moving a wheel from any value to the '--' position

 

? Any comments anyone ?

[litux]

another idea:

with the F3 button (i think this button hasn't any function) or any other button (clear button??)

the parameters gain "--" value (I don't know what is the method for selected the

parameters... any suggest?...)

With this we not send 0 dmx values

 

If we can clear the "--" value (moving a wheel for example) the next value will be

the dmx value actually output desk

 

for example:

i run a memory with

 

shutter FF

dimmer FF

pan 50

tilt 50

colour 30

gobo 20

gobo rot 10

 

i run another memory with

shutter --

dimmer --

pan --

tilt --

colour --

gobo --

gobo rot 20

 

If I decided vary a gobo wheel the next value for up moving will be 21

 

shutter --

dimmer --

pan --

tilt --

colour --

gobo 21

gobo rot 20

 

 

Sorry for my english but i think you understand me, thanks

[Paul]

You're right - using another button to un-tag attribute channels from being recorded would sort out the problem of outputting 0 beforehand. Can't use the CLEAR button on it's own though, as you might be in the middle of doing something else where CLEAR should have another effect. Using F3 - aren't you all struggling enough already to remember what the function keys do?

 

How about, whilst holding down COLOUR, BEAMSHAPE or POSITION, pressing CLEAR would un-tag all channels within that attribute? Would then be fairly consistent with partial homing, the current partial recording, fixture data copying, palettes and other similar functions. Channels would be automatically re-tagged by any of the following:

 

- outputting a palette

- moving a wheel

- pressing the FROG button

 

Where C - B - P are displayed on the monitor and LCD screens - should we do something like display the letter in lowercase c - b - p if not all channels within that attribute are recorded?

[K-Nine]

Record by channel.

When i call a memory with only beamshape atribute saved, all the beamshape channels change...

for example:

I have one mac 500 with one rotation gobo rotating at 20%... if i only

want adding a strobe effect with this gobo at same rotation ... i cannot

call a pallete (or memory) with only strobe effect because the gobo and rotation (focus, iris, etc..) disapear... i think the unique way is record by channel

 

Frog Reference No 5402 - Partial recording of memory data to individual parameter (channel) level - to be reviewed.

 

Shape generator

Are there any method for record (to memory or pallete) only the shape

without position for call this at any position. ?

In avolites consoles you can save only a shape on a memory fader and call this when you want...

 

Frog Reference No 5403 - Movement effects to be stored in Position Palettes - to be reviewed.

 

Currently, when you record a Position palette, only the instantaneous pan and tilt values of the fixtures are actually stored in the palette, even if the fixture has been set up with a movement effect.

 

Chase step on a submaster

when i push the step button (for one manually change chase in the submaster section) all the chase i have in the submaster section change at same time...

can you make flash button make the same to step button ???

 

Frog Reference No 5404 - Use the Submaster Flash buttons to allow stepping of a chase on individual submasters - to be reviewed.

 

Currently, pressing the Step button in the submaster section will step all the manual chases currently being output on the submasters.

[Laubfrosch]

Hi all :-)

another suggestion for the partial programming.

I think it could be an even better tool to be able to save effects separated from the position. This is analog to the discussion about how far shall be the partial programming. :idea:

It makes the desk a little more complicated but also gives a lot more flexibillity. I.e. you have a circle effect edited but once you´d like to let it run backstage and once centre stage.

 

I hope this sounds not to weird!! :roll:

 

Cheers

Sven

[Andy128]

We have just got some fat frogs and mambos and I was wondering on beam palettes how I would knockout a value. Lets say I want to do a rota speed for a gobo, I need to have the gobo in to see the speed, but do not want to record the gobo, just the speed. Is that possible or would I record the look to a master with a gobo in then touch the rota encoder, so I only record that.

 

Andy[/b]

[K-Nine]

In the current frog software it is only possible to record down to attribute level (eg if you record the colour parameters for fixture 1, then all the colour parameters for fixture 1 will be recorded).

 

See the release notes for software version 7.5 or the latest manual for further details.

 

We are looking into ways of improving partial recording down to individual fixture parameter level (eg, colour wheel, gobo etc.) This is something we are hoping to include in the next features update package.

 

Frog Reference No 5402 - Partial recording of memories and submasters down to individual fixture parameter level - to be reviewed.

[GLX]

When I record the prism rotating on a mac 250 to the beamshape pallet it works fine...BUT!!.. when I play back a cue and alter the gobo then attempt to insert the prism the gobo drops out.(using pallets)

Now I know that there both recorded onto the beamshape pallet there for is there any way around this without rewriting the personality for the 250+ :?

[K-Nine]

In the current software the level of partial programming only extends as far as attribute, therefore when you record a fixture's beamshape parameters into a palette, all the beamshape parameters for the tagged fixture(s) get recorded, and therefore played back when you output the palette.

 

The story so far:

 

Full Recording - has been available since the Frogs were tadpoles

 

Partial Recording by Fixture - was added in Release 3.

 

Partial Recording by Attribute - was implemented in Release 7.5 as part of the major functional updates package.

 

Partial Recording by Parameter (Channel) - Frog Reference No 5402 - To be developed for the next updates package. It's getting the user interface right that will require the most thought, since it must be possible to select and deselect individual fixture parameters (eg gobo wheel) easily and still be able to figure out exactly what will be or is already recorded via the user interface.

[pearcehire]

It could work how the Sirius 250 & 500 used to work when recording in partial mode. i.e. Only the parameters in an attribute group which have been changed since the last memory was recorded or clear was pressed are recorded into a memory. The diffiulty I would guess would be representing these changes on the LCD screens.

[K-Nine]

Precisely .. it's not so much the mechanism for recording individual fixture parameters (eg gobo, strobe etc). but how the information is fed back to the user so that it is clear which of the parameters are 'tagged' and will be recorded, and which aren't and will not be affected when outputting the memory, submaster, palette etc.

 

The yellow LEDs in the fixture selection buttons show the fixture level of tagging, the LEDs in the attribute buttons (colour, beamshape, position) show the attribute, but how do you show individual parameters within the current attribute and the other attributes ?

 

Auto tagging a fixture parameter when it is changed is OK (as per Sirius 250), but you also need a method of untagging a parameter, say if for example, you moved the wrong control wheel by mistake, and didn't want a particular parameter to be recorded.

 

Sometimes you may want to record all the beamshape parameters for a particular fixture, but you wouldn't want to have to change every parameter to get it recorded, would you ?

 

Therefore we need to look at the user interface very carefully before implementing partial programming down to the parameter level .. .

[richard]

My suggestion for untagging the attributes would be to smiply hold down a button (maybe clear, maybe not) and move the encoder. To display tagged attributes a star or similar could appear beside the levels in the LCD to indicate tagged attributes.

 

Does this make sense??

 

Thanks

 

Richard

[pearcehire]

Maybe one way of doing it would be to use one of the unused function keys maybe F4 to call up another screen which is effectively a 'programmer' windows which shows you which channels are tagged in a particular attribute group. It would then be possible to use the normal navigation keys to move round this screen to tag and untag channels.

 

The only problem with this would be translating this onto the LCD as well as the monitor. I know you guys are keen to make it possible to do everything without the monitor but maybe its time to say that advanced programming facilities like this are only possible with a monitor. I and other users here wouldn't be bothered by this (not saying that other people won't however). The only time I ever use the desk without the monitor is whilst patching it in the warehouse before it goes out.

 

Just my humble thoughts, I'd be interested to hear other peoples take on this.

[Kresten Bager]

Hey K-Nine,

 

I appreciate you have not implemented til feature yet but how will the user interface function? Hopefully not too many button pushes? And will it be possible to seperate brightness or will you as now always record brightness? And will generic brightness and fixture brightness be bound together like they are now?

 

Thanks!

Kresten

[Kresten Bager]

Great idea! An advanced programmers screen! But is there space for it :-)

 

The fact that the Frogs are getting too "complicated" to use without a screen is, for most users, not a problem. If you can afford to buy a frog you can certainly also afford a monitor.

 

I hope to see these implementations in the next software update - prehaps in time for PLASA?

 

Kresten.

[K-Nine]

I appreciate you have not implemented til feature yet but how will the user interface function? Hopefully not too many button pushes?

 

The details of the user interface for programming down to individual fixture parameter level have still to be defined, though I think there are some suggestions elsewhere in this topic which we may use.

 

And will it be possible to seperate brightness or will you as now always record brightness?

 

And will generic brightness and fixture brightness be bound together like they are now?

 

Since partial programming only applies to LTP channels/parameters, this is a separate issue:

 

Frog Reference 5539 - Ability to tag brightness and tracking for the memory stack.

[richard]

I would be a little unhappy about having to use the navigation keys for a lot of this.

 

It is a lot quicker to just be able to hit things and makle things happen, having a seperate programmer screen would be great though..

[K-Nine]

My suggestion for untagging the attributes would be to smiply hold down a button (maybe clear, maybe not) and move the encoder. To display tagged attributes a star or similar could appear beside the levels in the LCD to indicate tagged attribute

 

I like this suggestion as it fits in well with the existing user interface and method of doing things on the Frog desks.

 

One of the difficulties of adding new functionality or modifying exisiting functions is to maintain the existing operational methods and add in new ones as seamlessly as possible, given the existing front panel interface.

 

As I said in my earlier post in this topic, it's getting the user interface and visual feedback on this issue correct that is important.

 

If users wish to partially program down to fixture or attribute level they can still do so using the existing methods, but if they want to program down to individual parameter level then this should also be releatively simple to achieve.