Partial Memory Recording

[pearcehire]

So the idea of an advanced programmer screen activated by one of the function keys is not a good one? In my mind this would be the simplest way of doing this from a users point of view.

[K-Nine]

So the idea of an advanced programmer screen activated by one of the function keys is not a good one? In my mind this would be the simplest way of doing this from a users point of view.

 

I never said it was either good or bad :evil:

 

I just happen to agree with Richards comment above re hitting things (in this case fixture selection buttons, attribute buttons and contyrol wheels as in the current interface).

 

I am not covinced that navigating around a screen containing up to 288 (Fat Frog), 512 (Leap Frog) or 1024 (Bull Frog, Mambo Frog) parameters is the best way of tagging/untagging fixture parameters.

 

The fixture parameters are normally accessed via fixture number, attribute and wheel group. Having a monitor screen containing all possible fixture parameters may cause conflicts with the existing methods of indicating current fixture selection, tagging etc.

 

What happens if the desk does not have a monitor ?

 

PS The Function key F4 is used on the Fat Frog as the Group button.

[Haytech]

Laubfrosch schrieb

Hi all

another suggestion for the partial programming.

I think it could be an even better tool to be able to save effects separated from the position. This is analog to the discussion about how far shall be the partial programming.

It makes the desk a little more complicated but also gives a lot more flexibillity. I.e. you have a circle effect edited but once you´d like to let it run backstage and once centre stage.

 

I hope this sounds not to weird!!

 

Cheers

Sven

 

Hi all

Super Vorschlag Laubfrosch, gar nicht so schlecht für einen Bremer

I totally agree with Laubfrosch´s suggestion, if there is a way to program another palette i.e. if you are in position wheel group 2

palette only save wheel group 2 data.

[scotty1]

OK, let me see if i can explain this succesfully..

 

How can we program a palette that only effects the rotation portion of a gobo without it selecting a gobo. Whenever i program a palette and use it it will adjust all beam shape parameters.

 

It would be great to be able to select my gobo (from say, beam shape palette 1) , then pick a speed (from another beam shape palette) but this second palette selection always seems to overwrite the first selection.

 

Is there something simple i'm missing??

 

SP

[K-Nine]

Programming a palette, as with programming a memory or submaster can only be done down to the attribute level

 

That is, when you program a colour palette, all the colour parameters for the tagged fixtures will be recorded into the palette.

 

It is not possible to program down to individual fixture parameter (eg gobo wheel, iris) level in the current software.

[scotty1]

To be frank, that sucks! That means to program all seven gobos in a technobeam, in a static, slow, medium, and fast spin. (Before even starting on any prisms etc) You'd need to use up 4x7=28 palettes? As opposed to 10 if you could break down the attributes saved to a palette?

 

SP

[NZ]

Hi

 

Sorry that you feel it sucks. I see you have been a member for awhile so I was wondering why this has become an issue for you now?

 

I am afraid that we will not be adding this level of sophistication. The key as you say is simplicity. There is no simple way to add this type of indepth feature to the console. We also believe that the Frog range offers a comprehensive range of features for a console at it's price point.

 

I will be happy to point you in the direction of consoles that do have this level of programming.

 

Sorry I can't give you the answer that you would like.

 

Graham

Zero 88 Brand Manager.

[scotty1]

Let me just say at first that i wasn't trying to be gruff with the "that sucks comment"! It just adds a fair bit of extra setting up that could be avoided. But so be it! It's taken me a while to post the comment for a few reasons, but the main being that I'm still only hiring the desks as opposed to owning one. Basically I always thought that there must be a way of doing what i wanted, but would always just program around it and figure it out later! Upon some real investigation into the situation recently, i discovered there was no way to do it, so thought i'd mention it. Totally understand the price vs aimed market placement point, so I don't need any pointing towards other consoles. Congrats on the console so far, and more particularly this website and the forum.

 

SP

[NZ]

Hi

 

Sorry mate didn't think you were being gruff. Just being honest!

 

Hopefully some of the next updates will make it a little easier to work some elements.

 

Tell Clearlight to give you a good discount on a desk of your own

 

Cheers

 

Graham

[lxkev]

i've read most of your arguments on why you don’t feel this feature is necessary! it just seems that lots of users want this feature!

 

You seem to say the user interface would be 2difficult to use 8O . well how about this. when in partial mode... you move a wheel it tags that attribute.... the individual attribute display flashes. to untag the individual attribute. hold the main attribute button + move the wheel!!!

 

does this sound hard!!!???!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!

 

I understand and appreciate that you’re selling the desk at a very reasonable price . well how's about a beta software version. were we would pay an extra £250 for the advanced features. It would be a huge benefit for us users + it would prob benefit you lot 2 as it increase the saleability of the desk!

 

I've used loads of your desks! + i have always felt your desks are very good . I loved the sirus500, it did everything + was extremely powerful! we bought the frog because of your company’s great service to us. U've but lots of time and money into the illusion, however it’s a cheaper desk then the bullfrog? I’m sure u’ve put lots of time into the frog. It just feels week when using it.. its the little things that count like..1shot.

 

don’t get me wrong.. i like the bullfrog, however i want to love it

[K-Nine]

It's not just the tagging of individual parameters that is the issue, it's the untagging, ability to tag/untag all parameters for a particular attribute or fixture, display of what is actually tagged etc.

 

I agree that simply moving a wheel could tag the parameter, but you can't use the attribute and wheel to untag as this combination is already used to change the wheel editing modes.

[NZ]

Hi

 

I am afraid that nothing you have said so far has moved my heart of stone. Apart that is from wanting you to love the console.

 

I can see why some people want this feature but todate it is not the majority of users of the console.

 

If I felt everyone would buy a version of software then I would be more convinced. Past experience with all our consoles would suggest that most people do not buy upgrades. We then also get a lot of flack from people who don't have the same attitude as you about the cost of new features the result of which is a barrage of customer complaints along the lines of when I bought this console I thought it would be supported for ever with free upgrades.

 

The other big negative is that you end up with two types of softwares both needing support and worst of all desks in the market that do not do the same thing. How would you cope with renting a desk in for a show that you had done before on a version with individual parameters and now have a desk without... Effectively you end up with two products that look the same but work differently.

 

Yes we have put time into Illusion. It has been built on a platform that is similar to Frogs but was designed as a different concept from the begining. Yes it costs less than a Bullfrog which is really down to how we try and pass the value onto our customers. A BullFrog is expensive because it has so many faders and buttons. Illusion has less we can make it for less and pass the savings on...Ooops sounding like ASDA.

 

We will be making changes to Frog's and some of the things you are asking for like one shots will be there. Parameters we are still not convinced. It isn't just commercial but also keeping it easy enough for the broad user base to be comfortable with.

 

Sorry LXKev you will have to keep working on me

[lxkev]

Well to untag the attribute you good scroll down to a -- (ie dmx vaule --, 001, 002)???

 

benefits to the operation of the desk??

 

1. Live playback on pallets much easer

 

2. Resolves the problem of only having 24/48 pallets

 

3. As only fewer attributes are being stored, will that save space on the desks storage?

 

4. Alows the user to be more creative. ie if a fixture has two gobo wheels, the user can easily layer any of the gobo's on top of each other!

 

5.a lot faster programming.. ie.. have each gobo on a pallet, a prism on a pallet, just a focus

 

I’m sure I can think of some more reasons.

 

you say " I can see why some people want this feature but to date it is not the majority of users of the console. " well that my be because the majority of users have only used one desk with intelligent fixtures control!! I’m more then certain that if you provided this feature, many users would find it a big benefit

 

I really feel that this feature would make the desk “wow†plus you’ll be opening the desk to more higher end users, thus you’ll be getting more cash!!!

 

Fully understand where you’re coming from on the pay for upgrade concept. Some tight people out there!!

[NZ]

Still to complex and I am still not convinced.

 

Yes there are benefits but it is still not going to happen.

 

Sorry.

 

Graham

[Kresten Bager]

Dear Graham,

 

Hmm, what can we say to change your mind... :-)

As I see it Zero88 has a major question that you need to resolve before you can add features to the FROG range...

 

1. Price - how much can you charge for this desk, thus also determining how many features and what audience it is aimed at.

 

I would be willing to pay more for a desk that can program in "true parameter" mode. I am however not prepared to buy, say a, Hog. So is the FROG range aimed at "low to mid end" users or "mid to high end"?

 

I am very happy with my Bull FROG but faced with more gigs with almost no time for programming the FROGs are proving a bit slow.

 

A price increase would only affect new users and may seem a bit unfair. How this would be solved I don't know but I agree with you - all desks should be identical and software upgrades should be free.

 

But good luck with it...

 

Best regards

Kresten Bager

[GLX]

Why not do all your programming of palettes on the phantom frog, then transfer it to the desk.

I have four disks with different show styles on them, rock, pub, slow & trad. Seems to work fine when time is short.

[NZ]

Hi Kresten

 

You are dead right with your points. The desk is not aimed at top end users. It is meant for people who have a budget and are doing shows with moving lights. It has many features to aid in the programming and operating of moving lights. For us it is nice that many people have bought the desk and that it is now being used by people who would in the past have had to buy a more expensive product. We have been successful in addressing this broad market and offering them a tool for an affordable price. Increasing the price significantly will I believe mean the product is not serving the market it was designed for.

[lxkev]

The desk is not aimed at top end users. so why do you call the bull frog a "high spec desk"? and

"designed to appeal to all levels of users" = well u've just told us "The desk is not aimed at top end users" false advertising!!! 8O

 

"rapid programming of moving lights" thats just so funny.

 

"pallets can also be used to give flexibility in live playback" = suppose thats true as long as you have long arms, and a third arm! if only there was a pallet lock or subfocus pallets....that statment would be true

 

+ nz "Still to complex and I am still not convinced.

 

Yes there are benefits but it is still not going to happen. "

 

 

so wats this.....

 

Partial Recording by Parameter (Channel) - Frog Reference No 5402 - To be developed for the next updates package.

 

nz how do you cope with this support form. it has lots of function on it. would u prefer it if we sent you a handwritten letter!

[NZ]

Hi Kev

 

I was away for a little while. Some statements were made about individual parameters. The desk was never designed for this.

 

I think you are being pedantic with your interpretation of the fact we say the desk is suitable for all users, it is. You could use it on a major concert tour, would you? No. Likewise if you had the budget you could use a GrandMa on a school production, would you, probably not.

 

The desks do what theydo. We will continue to add features. We will not however try and make the desk into something that is going to be more than the hardware can cope with.

[lxkev]

well actual i used an ETC expression3 for a few schools, that desks cost £11 000. last time i checked!

 

I believe that a bull frog was used on a major tour, "the corrs". + i would consider using it. for 1 main reason. the position pallets. as on most tours you cant fly your rig @ the same height. so you have to go through each memory and refocus on most desk...but your desk just redo the pallets and your away... + if you had a pallet lock + focus subs

 

the three features i find most anoying on the frog, is:

 

*not b-ing able to lock pallets.(we can lock the screen, isn't logical we would want to lock the pallets's)

* not being able to control the chase speed live, + not bein able to start it from step 1 on a sub. (could hit flash button to start it on 1)

*not being able to save movement shapes to a pallet

 

individual parameters just on beam shapes...PLEASE.....i have had some experence with dsp.....+ i know that it can be complicated to do....but please consider it for some time in the future.... i'm sur that you would agree with me that it would give loads more flexibility in the live situation...

 

 

This has nothing to do with the frog..but you guys came closest then any other company to creating a combined live/theatrical lx desk (sirus 500/250)...with loads of fantastic features..... i dont understand why you didn't make a sirus 1500..... maybe thats something u should consider for the future? give it more subs..2 dmx uni's, the F.R.O.G , fans and pallets................................... =

[Laubfrosch]

Hi LXkev,

just to define and stop the anoying discussion about who is to work with a frog console. A hi-end user can work with a frog, off course he´ll miss a few features he´s used to from "bigger" & even lots more expensive desks, but he´ll not miss real necessary basics. Also a "low- end" user can work with a frog, most off the guys I talked with at Frog workshops who weren´t used to desks like HogII, Grand MA, Avo Diamond or whatever were pleased about the easiness of the frogs!!!

 

One Statement to the partial programming. You´re right! Yes you are more flexible having the possibility of programming down to attribute/channel level, but please sit down, relax....... and now imagine how many beamshapes you have used in at one time during a show!!!?

 

The more flexibility you have, the slower you´ll react on spontanious things on stage!

 

 

So stay straight, creative and prepare your shapes as a "boxed" pallette and youÂll be sure to restart exactly these FANTASTIC COMPLEX LOOKS you created by excercising the desk!

 

 

Best regards

 

Sven

 

P.S.: Kresten! Yeah dammned right!!!

[Pipo]

This has nothing to do with the frog..but you guys came closest then any other company to creating a combined live/theatrical lx desk (sirus 500/250)...with loads of fantastic features..... i dont understand why you didn't make a sirus 1500..... maybe thats something u should consider for the future? give it more subs..2 dmx uni's, the F.R.O.G , fans and pallets................................... =

 

I think LXKEV is right, make the "ULTIMATE FROG" and i will be the first one to buy it!!(with a big discount)

[Franck]

Hi Pipo

 

...we take your order now. What would you like to pay... after your special BIG discount?

[Pipo]

I will pay you with Buddweiser Franck

Are you going to be at ACF or is it just DCD and Rolight?

CU

[lxkev]

how many beam shapes do i use in a show........a lot!!!!! dont like the lx to be dull...anyone used a mac 2000...2 roating gobo wheels.....ahhhhhh.....i need to get out more!