Pre-Heat Set-up?

[l8]

A good friend from Stage Electrics has suggested that I set-up a pre-heat of about 10% on a channel that I have 2 x 1K Parcans on. The channel is protected by a 10A MCB and when they are faded in from cold they trip out.

Can this pre-heat be set on my Fat Frog?

 

And if so, how do you do it?

:?

[KWR88]

The Frog doesn't support a preheat per-se. You can set up a preheat state, and leave it sitting on a submaster, or program the preheat into all of your cues / subs, or just leave the preset fader for the channel at 10%.

 

Depending on the type of dimmer you are using, you may or may not be able to set a preheat on that. What have you got ?

[l8]

I have 3 Racks of iCAN SCI121OS for the stage and a Rack of iCAN SCH121OS for the House lights. The iCAN SCI121OS are the racks which would need the pre-heat on 3 channels.

[KWR88]

Hi Again,

 

I have spoken to the guys over at iLight, and they tell me that your dimmers may or may not have a preheat feature on them, depending on the version of software they were built with.

 

Your best bet is to contact them directly, and have the serial number of your dimmers to hand if possible.

[l8]

Stage Electrics and I currently have an issue with iLight over software problems as I understand I was one of the very first customers to have these dimmers installed, if not the first. So new were they, I'didn't even get a full manual just a few photocopied sheets.

 

When they come out I will get them to answer this as well.

 

Thanks.

[Paul]

Ah well, if you've got early iLight dimmers, then you might be in luck. Herein lies one of the mysterious differences between architectural (iLight) and entertainment (Zero 88) dimmers. Architectural stuff generally happens nice and slowly so as not to surprise anyone. Entertainment stuff is quite the opposite. Hence in an architectural dimmer, preheat would serve no useful purpose, as you don't often warm the bulbs up in a hurry. Architectural dimmers are generally switched on 24/7, and people expect them to give savings on their electricity bills. Preheat does exactly the opposite.

 

iLight dimmers have no concept of preheat. Instead they have 'minimum level'. In early versions of the iLight dimmer firmware, if the control input was below the minimum level, then the output held at the minimum level, effectively a preheat. However, in more recent versions of the firmware, if the control input is below the minimum level, then the output is turned off.

 

The 'minimum level' is only configurable from the iCAN network. There is no user interface adjustment like on most Zero 88 dimmers. To change this you will have to ask iLight to send out one of their nice friendly engineers to reconfigure your dimmers. See their smiling faces, along with the latest dimmer manuals, on http://www.ilight.co.uk

 

On a related point, there's some discussion somewhere in another topic on this forum regarding topset. We've traditionally regarded preheat, topset, and laws as being dimmer functions rather than desk functions. Do you folks agree? Or is opinion shifting to regard these now as desk functions? Let us know what you all think!

 

Cheers,

Paul.

[richard]

I would definitely say that topset is a desk function, at the moment there is still some functionality that was part of the old sirius which is not present on the frog, topset being one of these things, it is always good to be able to quickly and easily remove a channel from the output temporarily (if a lamp is knocked for instance. It is also useful to be able to do pre-heat and dimmer laws from the desk, as most of the time I need pre-heat or laws is using old dimmers such as Green Gingers, which are ever so slightly lacking in the user interface front!!

[K-Nine]

I would definatly say that topset is a desk function, at the moment there is still some functionality that was part of the old sirius which is not present on the frog, topset being one of these things, it is always good to be able to quickly and easily remove a channel from the output temporarily (if a lamp is knocked for instance. It is also useful to be able to do pre-heat and dimmer laws from the desk, as most of the time I need pre-heat or laws is using old dimmers such as Green Gingers, which are ever so slightly lacking in the user interface front!!

 

TOPSET - I would agree with topset being a desk function (cf Illusion).

It is almost certainly one of many items raised by users which have been logged and will be considered for future software upgrades, though I cannot say if, or when, that may be - that decision is up to THE MANAGEMENT

 

Initial thoughts:

• The function must be easily accessible without having to go into Desk Setup.
   
  Topset would only apply to the generic (dimmer) channels on the Frog desks ?
   
  The default setting for each generic channel would be 100%
   
  The user could set each individual channel to any value between 0 - 100%.
   
  A reset topset function to return all channels to the default 100% ?
  

FUNCTIONALITY: There is also a great deal of functionality on the Frogs that was never available on the Sirius desks

 

PRE-HEAT and DIMMER LAWS - I tend to agree with Paul on this one and believe that this functionality should lie in the dimmers. Have you looked at our Chilli Range of dimmers, which have preheat, dimmer laws and more :wink:

[richard]

Re pre-heat etc, while I know a lot of dimmers have very good dimmer laws and things, most theatres do not contain these and when I am incoming to these venues I cannot really rip out their green gingers or STMs and shove some Chillis in instead, nice as that would be. If I am touring a show then I often want to be able to adjust pre-heat levels and dimmer laws so that the show looks the same without massive re-plotting, this allows for a dodgy dimmer that occurs throughout the show, as I said above you cannot adjust things like this on old dimmers without ripping the things apart, and it's not often that you have time for that!

 

Richard

[K-Nine]

With regards having to work with existing dimmers, then that is a fair point. I believe Tim's suggestion earlier in this topic re setting up a preheat state on a submaster may offer a solution.

 

With regards dimmer laws, this is a new area as far as desk functionality goes and will need to be reviewed with all the other suggestions we receive on the functionaliity and operation of the desks.

 

I suppose if both the desk and the dimmers have law capabilities, you would have to be careful that they didn't interfere with each other and produce some weird output curves :twisted:

[Kirkup_xp]

Dimming Curves: Not to burst your bubble, but most of the large theatre desks (well, Strand ones anyway - not much experience that isn't Zero88 or Strand as yet) have a dimming curve manipulator built into them. Not only does this give the option for pre-heating and giving an exponential fade (for example) but you can also turn channels into non dim / switch channels (square law) - something which would be useful, effectively allowing your dimmer racks to function as a relay rack. You can do it on the DMX / 48 analogue converter, so why not build it into the Frog?

Sorry if this doesn't make sense - i'm feeling a little confusing.

 

Peter

[K-Nine]

Dimming Curves: Not to burst your bubble, but most of the large theatre desks (well, Strand ones anyway - not much experience that isn't Zero88 or Strand as yet) have a dimming curve manipulator built into them. Peter

 

I think you've hit it on the head... most of the 'large theatre desks'

 

Frog is a sub-2000 pound hybrid desk. And whilst we should never, and have never stopped developing it, you must understand that there is a difference.

 

Our rationale for the inclusion of features is quite simple and, I'll go as far as to say more open than a lot of other manufacturers... If a feature can be implemented in the product and there is a good commercial or operational case to do so... we'll implement it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be defensive or negative, just trying to stop us going down the route of... 'well the xxxx desk can do it, so why doesn't yours ?'

 

Dimmer curves are in our database of feature requests, at some point in the future, we'll be reviewing all of them, and trying to come up with a list of features for the next update... I hope that you will all be ready to vote, and to help us with the specifications :-)

 

Since this topic has diversified into a number of different features the following Frog Reference numbers covers the items to be reviewed:

 

Frog Reference 5416 - Pre-Heat

 

Frog Reference 5417 - Topset

 

Frog Reference 5418 - Dimmer Laws

[Guest eric]

On the subject of your fine piece of engineering the Fat Frog vs. Strand consoles- I for one will say the FF is miles above the Strands for moving light control. I began programming ML's on the 500 series 7 years back and have progressed thru Hog and Grand -MA consoles. I would busk a show on the FF anyday before the Strand desks... In fact what brings me to this site tonite is that I have just begun to setup my latest FF. I sold the first one because I bought the Grand-MA Ultra lite, but I've come back A) because the software is better and still expanding, and B)to fill the gap for a lot of shows whos needs, budgets and user capabilties fall below the MA. The software is really coming along and the console is an astounding value. I also put a Bullfrog in a large venue where Avo users are very happy with it.

Bravo Zero 88!

[Mars]

No Topset ??? You're not joking?

(blind was also lost already)

I would recommend unconditional free selectable channel topset.

Setting up dimming curves for the stack (location: attic) of betapacks and rackmasters would also be very handy.

Preheat: I could rip them, but there's no sense in re-adjusting them weekly (for another show).

 

"stop us going down the route of..."

Agreed, but I cannot jump over to 2000plusplus pound/euro desks.

So there is this meticulously fine balance of functionality/price, but I would like the max/min option respectively.

[K-Nine]

So there is this meticulously fine balance of functionality/price, but I would like the max/min option respectively.

 

As would most people... But unfortunately, until someone comes up with a way to get Software engineers to work without having to pay them, then the commercial reality remains. :-)

 

We believe that you do get a reasonably good balance of price vs. functionality with the Frog range, and a balance that has been improving since the desks were launched. I am sure that it will continue to do so, hopefully keeping our many users satisfied.

[Guest]

The proof of the pudding...

The final choice will be the desk which fits our needs best, within our budget.

The FatFrog is yet the most serious candidate.

And I'll request my retailer anyhow for a sufficient demoperiod (included with the latest sw version) to find out losing some funct's, and gaining other funct's.

But I do need & use topset on the sirius, especially when there are (would-be-) jugglers on the stage (burned 181).

 

Here's to you too!