Update vs Remove

[Techie_v2]

Hi all,

Sometimes, probably through copy and paste I end up with position data in a cye for some moving lights which aren't on. Through the trick I learnt recently on the forum of going into a cue after copying it and using update with smarttag on, I can remove this position data.

I was just wondering what are the pros/cons of using update or remove.

Say I had a cue where some movers were on in a set position, and I canged my mind and didnt want them on, would going into that cue, turning them off and updating the cue be good enough or is it better to use the remove function. What are the differences?

Sometimes I have had to go into cues before and after the cue I have made changes to and update them to get them move on Dark sequence to work properly. I know its got something to do with the way I'm programming, just want to understand, why, and what I can do differently so pregaps save some time and paracetamol!

Thanks

[kgallen]

 

1 hour ago, Techie_v2 said:

Sometimes, probably through copy and paste I end up with position data in a cue for some moving lights which aren't on. Through the trick I learnt recently on the forum of going into a cue after copying it and using update with smarttag on, I can remove this position data.

I was just wondering what are the pros/cons of using update or remove.

I have the same and did query the Copy function on this Forum a few months back. Update with SmartTag on in this instance should be a clean way to prune out the data that is not needed in the cue as a result of the Copy which copies in "blocked" values to achieve the Copy. Edward explained this to me in that thread and the behaviour of Copy does make sense but my inner OCD makes me want to tidy up with the Update step. I'll see if I can link the thread later.

1 hour ago, Techie_v2 said:

Say I had a cue where some movers were on in a set position, and I changed my mind and didn't want them on, would going into that cue, turning them off and updating the cue be good enough or is it better to use the remove function. What are the differences?

Remove is a very specific operation. In your example above you talk about turning off their intensity. In the case of intensity, using Update with SmartTag is the easiest thing to do, and that the intensity is now being recorded at zero, the action of Update with SmartTag will be to prune any other attribute data (colour, position etc) for that fixture. (That is my understanding, @Edward Z88 to correct me if I'm wrong).

Remove is a very specific operation that will prune from the recorded data, the specified parameters for that fixture. I often have this scenario when I'm experimenting with my next cue, trying some colours or moving position and then concluding that I didn't actually want to change those fixtures at all. In the case of those changes being in the programmer then I can use the backspace key and CLEAR to purge those changes. However once those changes are committed to a cue with a RECORD operation, then Remove is the mechanism to get the scissors out and to go back and to snip that data out of the cue as if the change was never there in the first place. This is of course different to the situation where I changed the colour but then decided I didn't want the fixture lit when I've recorded a change (to colour) that I can't see (because intensity is off) but has actually entered some data for that fixture in the recorded database. The key thing here is that using Remove to snip out those unintended, or unrequired changes, is that what happened before and what happens next is wholly unaffected, including any impact on Move on Dark.

I've probably made a real meal of explaining that above and while I understand the principles and operation I wouldn't claim to be as adept at performing these edit operations on the console as I should be. So your queries do gain my sympathy.

1 hour ago, Techie_v2 said:

Sometimes I have had to go into cues before and after the cue I have made changes to and update them to get them move on Dark sequence to work properly. I know it's got something to do with the way I'm programming, just want to understand, why, and what I can do differently so perhaps save some time and paracetamol!

Maybe in some of these cases you should be selecting Track Backwards or Track Forwards with these changes. But I would expect if you are doing a Remove operation on cue #n then the tidy-up in that cue should directly benefit cue #(n-1) and cue #(n+1) implicitly because the fixture changes that were not required are now purged from the programme.

Again, easy on my part to say this and I confess that I go through the same stressful period as you're conveying. I think that's because we probably don't do these operations very often and are a little apprehensive that they'll have an impact that we didn't expect. Then, because the console doesn't have any real Undo type function (once the command line has been committed), we're in a position where we can't Undo to recover what we had (even though it was "wrong") in order to attempt another approach.

So I realise I might not have helped much there. Maybe some words of comfort if nothing else, that you aren't going mad and several aspects also cause similar consternation to other users! I'm not sure if Edward is about at the moment, I'm sure once he frees up, he'll have some calming words for us both on these topics!

Kevin

[Edward Z88]

16 hours ago, Techie_v2 said:

Say I had a cue where some movers were on in a set position, and I canged my mind and didnt want them on, would going into that cue, turning them off and updating the cue be good enough or is it better to use the remove function. What are the differences?

Great question. This is a complex subject, so apologies if my explanations don't help!

If you update a cue by simply changing values, you have to think about how the fixtures are going to get to those values, and how the fixtures are going to get from those values to the values in the next cue.

However this is where SmartTag is your friend - if you set a fixture to 0 and update a cue, but the fixture was already at 0 in the previous cue, this operation essentially IS an Update > Remove. This is because SmartTag does not include an instruction for a light, if the light is already doing that thing in the previous cue. So if it was @ 0 already, there's no need to tell it to be @ 0 again. Intensity data is therefore removed - tick. SmartTag also strips out attribute data for the fixture if it is @ 0, hence this operation means all data is removed for the fixture in this cue. However, this then becomes a question of tracking. If you did this update as Cue Only, the next cue will now have data added in, to tell the fixtures to be in the same values, as if the previous cue had never been updated. So in this scenario, an UPDATE > SmartTag > Track Forwards would have been required.

If you use UPDATE > Remove, your cue will have absolutely no instructions for the tagged parameters. The parameters can therefore continue doing what they were already doing, OR Move On Dark can grab that fixture in order to prepare it. This therefore could be a good option if the fixtures were on in the previous cue, and you want them to remain on in this cue with no change.

So the choice as to whether to simply update the values stored in a cue, or remove them completely, really needs to be made on a case by case basis, thinking about how this could effect cue transitions. 

When programming quickly during plotting or even technical rehearsal, it may make sense to do a "quick and dirty" update, to just change the values rather than remove the values. Then, run through your cues prior to the dress. If there are any weird transitions, or Move On Dark isn't working as expected, you can then go into the troublesome cue, select fixtures > HOME > UPDATE > Track Forwards > Remove > ENTER if necessary to tidy things up.

I hope this makes sense. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Techie_v2]

Hi Edward,

Thanks for taking the time to explain

5 hours ago, Edward Z88 said:

However, this then becomes a question of tracking. If you did this update as Cue Only, the next cue will now have data added in, to tell the fixtures to be in the same values, as if the previous cue had never been updated. So in this scenario, an UPDATE > SmartTag > Track Forwards would have been required.

 

I think this is where I'm going wrong so to speak. I shall try the track forwards option.

I rarely use remove, mainly because I have to look up how to do it each time and I'm scared of breaking something, where update seems a simpler process.

If I keep having the same issue I'll grab a copy of the show file if you don't mind taking a look to see if you can figure out what I'm doing wrong!

Thanks

 

[Edward Z88]

15 hours ago, Techie_v2 said:

If I keep having the same issue I'll grab a copy of the show file if you don't mind taking a look to see if you can figure out what I'm doing wrong!

Yes of course - if there is a particular cue you'd like me to look at in a show file, just email it to me and I can take a look.