Starting/stopping effects

[frostyboy]

I watched the video last night on groups and effects and found it fascinating.

I need to create a lightning flash using 2x halogen floods outside a window. (On stage)

I created a group of the two lights then switched to the effects panel and tapped lightning.

(I must say I find the combination uses of channel dimmer/playback button/record/master go buttons very confusing for the best way of programming).

I recorded the effect to playback 48 and it played ok. The problem is, it didn't/won't stop. Creating and starting the next cue, even a blackout cue didn't stop it and I couldn't find the settings I needed which would stop it.

I only need the lights to flash for 3 or four flashes. The lightning effect flashes are varied in intensity and time, but I can't think how to create my own intensity/time flash effect. 

I sometimes have a similar issue where a couple of lights on stage are lit without asking for them. I can raise and lower the relevant dimmers and they stop, but the clear light comes on and when I tap it the lights come back on again. I can't figure out how to prevent this.

The second thing I need to do is at exactly the same time as the lightning strike I need to flicker the lights in the room.

Whereas the lightning is lights off then flash on, this is the opposite with the lights on and a flicker to off then on again. I can't think how to achieve this now we don't have a flash button.

Any suggestions for this newbie would be very welcome.

Thank you

Frostyboy

[kgallen]

You could use a chase and set Shots to 3 or 4 (or a multiple of depending on your sequence).

Lightning effect might be too quick for tungsten. 
 

If you use an effect your follow cue needs to programme No Effect. If you are using SmartTag and set your effect lights to 0 intensity this No Effect won’t record. So make that cue then go back in with Update, select fixtures and No Effect then turn off Smart Tag for that update. If you’ve recorded later cues make sure Track Forwards is also enabled in that Update.

This behaviour of SmartTag and No Effect is well known as a PITA even though the console is behaving consistently with the definition of SmartTag.

 

Your other comments on programming do suggest you’re making life needlessly complicated though, no wonder you feel confused. 

[scottydog75]

2 hours ago, frostyboy said:

I can't think how to achieve this now we don't have a flash button.

You can record any combination of lights to a single Playback or "Multi Function Fader" (MFF), and when the desk Fader Function is in "Playback" mode (which sounds like you are), the button below each MFF should act as a Flash button by default (it's function can be changed: Hold SETUP and press the button). However, I can't immediately think of a way how you can make this button act as a 'reverse' flash button. Perhaps a 'Latch' might work with a couple of extra button presses? 

 

As you've probably experienced, if the Fader Function is in "Channels" mode, the button acts as a select key, rather than Flash in this instance.

[frostyboy]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. 

I can see the sense in what you say. No effect cue set to go with the previous cue and a delay of a couple of seconds would answer the not ending problem. 

I did record the 2 lights to a user defined key and that works perfectly to manually flash the lights. 

What would be perfect though would be if I knew how to create my own 'effect' so that it was exactly how I wanted it instead of the preset lightning effect. 

I'm sure there is a way, maybe with waveforms, but it is beyond my early use ability. Kor maybe a macro!) 

I've been using Phantom to try and familiarise myself with the board, but it is very limiting not being able to see the results of the settings (like on Edward's videos) without the Dock house Capture, which I assume costs a fortune. 

Frostyboy

[kgallen]

 

3 hours ago, frostyboy said:

I did record the 2 lights to a user defined key and that works perfectly to manually flash the lights. 

I do that a lot for transient lightning type effects, nothing wrong with that approach. The reason this works is that when you stop pressing the UDK it does a "release" operation that allows the lights to be re-controlled by whatever other cue stack is active.

 

3 hours ago, frostyboy said:

What would be perfect though would be if I knew how to create my own 'effect' so that it was exactly how I wanted it instead of the preset lightning effect. 

I'm sure there is a way, maybe with waveforms, but it is beyond my early use ability. Kor maybe a macro!) 

Since there is no "visualiser" for the Waveform engine this is hard. I've only had limited success. You really need the lights there so you can see what is happening. A usability improvement for the Waveform Generator is long overdue for the console, Z88 have been promising something for a long time now but as yet nothing has materialised (and it's #2 request here: 

)

In this case one of the presets is probably the most practical approach, but use the Speed and Size to try and get it to work with the right feel. We need to encourage the Z88 folk to build in more effects presets like strobes and explosion type effects. But also to continue to include effects that support tungsten and not just newer LED fixtures. Your requirements aren't unreasonable or uncommon and I feel this is harder than it should be with such an advanced console.

 

3 hours ago, frostyboy said:

I've been using Phantom to try and familiarise myself with the board, but it is very limiting not being able to see the results of the settings (like on Edward's videos) without the Dock house Capture, which I assume costs a fortune. 

You can use the Dock House setup with Capture for free but if you want to design your own rigs then you have to buy Capture, which I think starts close to £400 for a Solo license. I bought a license a few years back (Capture 2019), but honestly I don't get on with it very well, I find it very un-user-friendly and clunky. Edward swears by it though...!

https://shopwl.com/capture-2023-solo-edition-download/

[frostyboy]

Thank you kg.

I'm downloading Capture. Is Dockhouse a separate plugin or something? I've only seen it mentioned as Dockhouse Capture!

Also, I can't remember until I go back to the desk what our fixtures are listed as on the physical board. Some of our lights are Strand Quartet PC F650 but they are not in the fixtures list on Phantom.

Any idea what they can be put in as please?

 

[kgallen]

A Strand Quartet would be just patched as Dimmer. All conventional lights just patch as Dimmer as they only have intensity control. You can rename within the Fixture Schedule if you’d like to see a different name (eg ‘DSL’) in the Output Window.

In Capture you will pull up a Strand Quartet PC so it has the correct focus and photometric data. 
 

Re Dock House I think you have to download a package from the Zero88 website, I can’t remember I’ll have a hunt. I’m sure it says in Edward’s video. 

[kgallen]

All the stuff you need for Dock House is on this page - there is a section ‘Capture Files’ including instructions to get it working:

https://www.vari-lite.com/global/products/zeros-software

[frostyboy]

Brilliant thank you kg.

Up and running. Although I still can't find Strand Quartet in the fixtures list!

Frostyboy

 

[kgallen]

1 hour ago, frostyboy said:

Although I still can't find Strand Quartet in the fixtures list!

Well you won’t, it’s not in there. Generic tungsten lanterns are just patched as Dimmer, they don’t need any other information for the console.

The same way you’ll never find ETC Source 4 in there or CCT Minuette or Strand Prelude. The console doesn’t talk to these types of fixture over DMX, it talks to a dimmer. The console couldn’t care less what type of generic lantern you plug into that dimmer output, it can only dim it.

If the fixture were more complex, say an LED, then the console needs to know which channel is red, which green, etc, which channel is the strobe. If it’s a mover then it needs to know the pan and tilt controls etc. In that case you have to find the correct fixture definition (and mode) so the FLX knows how to control all of the parameters of that light. None of this is required for a generic light which can just go on or off.

If you were building a design in Capture then you would look up Strand Quartet PC in their library so that Capture knows what beam angle the light supports, if it has a barn door, what gel colour is in it, what it’s luminous intensity is compared to other lights in the rig, so it can model it. But from the FLX point of view it’s just a dimmer channel. 

[frostyboy]

That's what I meant kg. No mention of Strand of any lights in the Capture library, and I have updated to the latest version.

I have checked all the other manufacturers for a similar spec but there isn't one.

frostyboy

[kgallen]

That’s strange - I’ve rigged Strand Quartet F in my own Capture designs. Your Quartet PC will be in there somewhere. You must be looking in the wrong place or your search is too specific, or that you don’t have a Capture license is stopping you finding their full library of fixtures. 

[frostyboy]

I wonder if it's because it's the Student version!

Just checked the website and that is the reason.

I don't know if I could import that bit of library if someone had it!

[Davidmk]

I can't check this because I have a Capture licence but I don't think you can do much without a licence except load the dockhouse file and use it as it stands. Obviously you need to load the dockhouse show file into your desk or phantom ZerOS as well.

[frostyboy]

No, I have the option to install a manually downloaded library in the settings. I have 32 fixtures installed from the library at the moment but they had to be just from the list and they are just PAR64.

The Student version is available for anyone to download legitimately. It works fine too. Just doesn't have my fixture.

 

[Davidmk]

Well, I've just downloaded and installed the latest update to Capture 2023 (for which I am licensed) and the Quartet PC is there...

But, if you are using the student edition then I expect you have read the limitations - if not then they say...

Capture 2023 Student Edition

The Student Edition of Capture is a free version of Capture that may be used for any purpose, educational or not.

Feature-wise it is based on the Solo Edition, with the following differences:

• Unlimited number of DMX universes.
• Reduced amount of trusses and fixtures in the library. The full list of fixtures is available here.
• Motion (DMX movers, DMX rotators and motion constructs) and effects (CO₂, fire and water jets) are not available.
• Opens and saves Student Edition project files only.
• Does not export Capture Presentation files.

All console connectivity options except MA-Net3 are present and fully functional.

and will have checked out the link to available fixtures which, sadly, does not include your specific models.

Are you a student at an establishment which has an education licence for Capture? If so then speak to your tutor as they may be able to help. If no then, for the purposes of trying out effects and seeing roughly how your programming will look then you will need to use the closest available fixtures from the reduced set available in the student edition.

Free editions of software will always have some limitations - nobody would pay for a licence if they didn't - and Capture student appears to have what you need to set students a design task and for them to complete the assignment.

[Edward Z88]

Hi @frostyboy

On 3/2/2024 at 8:25 AM, frostyboy said:

I recorded the effect to playback 48 and it played ok. The problem is, it didn't/won't stop. Creating and starting the next cue, even a blackout cue didn't stop it and I couldn't find the settings I needed which would stop it.

I only need the lights to flash for 3 or four flashes.

Is playback 48 a cue stack, or does playback 48 simply contain a single cue containing your effect?

If playback 48 contains a single cue, and you trigger that playback, that playback will then be active with your effect running, until the playback is manually released.

You could record a second cue onto playback 48 to "turn off" the effect, which automatically follows the first cue after a certain amount of time. This would mean you could trigger the playback, the effect would run, and then automatically turn off again.

On 3/2/2024 at 8:25 AM, frostyboy said:

I sometimes have a similar issue where a couple of lights on stage are lit without asking for them. I can raise and lower the relevant dimmers and they stop, but the clear light comes on and when I tap it the lights come back on again. I can't figure out how to prevent this.

Based on your description, there is a playback active on your console which is causing these fixtures to be on. If you view the Output window on your FLX, you will see a "Source" button at the top. Tap this, and it will tell you the playback/cue that is currently controlling the active fixtures.

On 3/2/2024 at 8:25 AM, frostyboy said:

Whereas the lightning is lights off then flash on, this is the opposite with the lights on and a flicker to off then on again. I can't think how to achieve this now we don't have a flash button.

To do this, hold SETUP, and tap the button of the playback containing your flicker effect. In the playback's settings, change the "Intensity Mixing" to "Latest Takes Precedence", and click OK. Now upon holding the playback's flash button, the fixtures will go to their effect values, even if the lights are already on from another playback.

On 3/2/2024 at 11:20 PM, frostyboy said:

I'm downloading Capture. Is Dockhouse a separate plugin or something? I've only seen it mentioned as Dockhouse Capture!

"Dockhouse" is the name of the Capture demonstration project that has been created. Please see this link for more information...

https://www.zero88.com/manuals/zeros/networking/connecting-to-capture

[frostyboy]

Thanks for all that Edward. 

I think I'm mostly getting there now. 

I have achieved the effects manually by creating a series of on and b/o cues timed to automatically run through at fractions of a second apart. It looks great if not elegant in the cue stack. 

I would have liked to record these to a single playback and then trigger that from a single cue in master playback to make it tidier, but for some reason when I try to record a number of cues to the same playback button they do not record. I've tried different ways to do this and still can't achieve it. 

Sounds as though I'm a bit dim but I'm not. Just can't find out what the issue is. 

I set (let's say) dimmers 25 & 26 to max. Press record. Press (let's say) playback 1 which is flashing. 

I set a blackout, all dimmers and lights off. Press record. Press playback 1 which is not flashing. Click create cue2.

 

The do the same again with lights on. When I try to play back, each press of playback button1 advances the cues down the stack but there are no lights at all. Just blackouts. 

Frostyboy. 

[kgallen]

What you did should work and is the right approach - ie create a playback with a sequence of cues. Maybe convert to Chase. 
 

Then in the main stack trigger and release that playback to get your effect. That is indeed the neatest and the best way. 
 

We need to work out what’s going wrong with your special playback recording…

[Edward Z88]

3 hours ago, frostyboy said:

I would have liked to record these to a single playback and then trigger that from a single cue in master playback to make it tidier, but for some reason when I try to record a number of cues to the same playback button they do not record. I've tried different ways to do this and still can't achieve it. 

Sounds as though I'm a bit dim but I'm not. Just can't find out what the issue is. 

I set (let's say) dimmers 25 & 26 to max. Press record. Press (let's say) playback 1 which is flashing. 

I set a blackout, all dimmers and lights off. Press record. Press playback 1 which is not flashing. Click create cue2.

The do the same again with lights on. When I try to play back, each press of playback button1 advances the cues down the stack but there are no lights at all. Just blackouts. 

The only step you have not mentioned here, is double tapping CLEAR prior to playing back the cues. You must double tap CLEAR, to clear your manual value adjustments, to allow your cues to play back as programmed.

If you press and hold VIEW, and tap playback 1's button, this will show you the cues on this playback. Up and Down timings should be displayed for each cue. If Up/Down times are not displayed, this indicates there is no intensity data stored in the cue.

[frostyboy]

2 hours ago, kgallen said:

What you did should work and is the right approach - ie create a playback with a sequence of cues. Maybe convert to Chase. 
 

Then in the main stack trigger and release that playback to get your effect. That is indeed the neatest and the best way. 
 

We need to work out what’s going wrong with your special playback recording…

Thank you. I've managed that now. The fader button needs to be on playbacks and the dimmer up on that playback. Then when I press the playback button it sequences through the cues. 

I've recorded the effect I want  on 8 cues, set to continue from previous cue with a short time delay.  So they run through beautifully. 

I then read a post by Edward Z88 on triggering that playback stack from one master cue. I can't get that to trigger. 

I create an empty master cue by having an empty output window and recording. 

I select the master cue settings. 

Add a macro trigger of cue stack 1 (my playback) and the recorded cue has no fade in or fade out, just the settings listed as Trigger. 

When I hit the go button, nothing happens. 

Edit... I've now discovered that it will only trigger in the master playback cue list if I have primed it by previously raising and then lowering the playback dimmer prior to the trigger. After that it does not work again without going through the same routine! There must be a setting for this! 

 

[kgallen]

That all sounds in order. If your trigger cue only has the macro trigger and no other lights recorded then I’d expect fade times all to be blank. 
 

The next (or maybe a later) cue in your main stack will be a Release of PB1 to stop the effect. 
 

I’m not sure why your trigger is not happening. I’m assuming you are viewing and GO on your main cue stack. Maybe there are some other playback settings that are not default. I’ll have to defer to Edward for what other settings you should check. 

[Edward Z88]

22 minutes ago, frostyboy said:

I then read a post by Edward Z88 on triggering that playback stack from one master cue. I can't get that to trigger. 

I create an empty master cue by having an empty output window and recording. 

I select the master cue settings. 

Add a macro trigger of cue stack 1 (my playback) and the recorded cue has no fade in or fade out, just the settings listed as Trigger. 

When I hit the go button, nothing happens. 

My guess is that you are triggering playback 1 when it is already active. In this situation, nothing will happen.

To confirm, press and hold CLEAR, and tap playback 1's button. This will manually release the playback. Then try triggering your cue in the Master Playback that triggers playback 1. Playback 1 should then get triggered.

Based on your description, it sounds like playback 1 contains multiple auto-follow cues, with the last cue in playback 1 being a blackout. In this situation, to avoid needing to manually release playback 1, you may find it is easiest to configure the last cue in playback 1, to release playback 1. 

Then, your cue in the Master Playback will trigger playback 1, and the last cue in playback 1 will automatically release itself once complete. This means you can then retrigger your cue in the Master Playback, and Playback 1 will be activated again.

18 minutes ago, kgallen said:

That all sounds in order. If your trigger cue only has the macro trigger and no other lights recorded then I’d expect fade times all to be blank. 

As @kgallen mentions, if a cue includes no intensity information, no Up/Down times will be shown. In this situation, you may decide you do actually want to include some "dummy" intensity information. This will then provide Up/Down cue timings. The Up time can then be used to set the fade up time of the playback you are triggering from this cue.

[frostyboy]

I have programmed a UDK as a light setting and use the flash button to flash the light on.

Is there a way to have an existing lighting state live and use the UDK button to flash it off instead of on?

[kgallen]

I don’t think you can directly with a UDK (*)

What you need is an Inhibit playback. Record the same lights to another playback (probably you could copy) and then SETUP and set playback as an inhibit. But then I think you’ll have to drag the fader down for the ‘out’ which is not as snappy as just pressing a button. 

(*) There might be a convoluted way: create a macro to trigger the above inhibit playback and then set a UDK to trigger the macro. 

I’m sure Edward will have a better idea!

ETA: On FLX you can now reconfigure the Blackout fader/button. Probably you could reprogram the Blackout fader/button as an Inhibit for just your above lights then hopefully the Blackout button is your "UDK". (Blackout is usually an Inhibit for the whole lighting rig).