kgallen

Hi, I'm using a Fat Frog with 10.12. I've been having a play with Tracking [Mode=Partial, Tracking=On(--), Brightness=Channel] using two generics for a starter, before I complicate things by adding some fixtures. (I'm hoping to take the plunge and use tracking in our next show). I have successfully managed to track a chase initiated in an earlier cue, through later cues where the chasing channel is not tagged but other channels are tagged and are moving about. The chase keeps running until a later cue when the channels used by the chase are tagged (as a scene) and revert to a static state. All good. However I have been unable to track a long (scene) fade on one channel through subsequent (scene) cues that don't have that channel tagged, where I would expect it to track. (In this example, all memories are of type scene). CUE9 Ch1=FF, Ch2=00, time=3s/3s CUE10 Ch1=00, Ch2=00, time=3s/30s [initiate long fade down on Ch1.] CUE11 Ch1=TR, Ch2=FF, time=3s/3s [Ch1 is tracking (not tagged in this memory). I expect Ch1 to continue on 30s down fade and Ch2 to fade up in 3s] I GO on CUE9 and Ch1 fades up to FF in 3s, Ch2 is 00. I GO on CUE10 and Ch1 begins its 30s slow down fade. Ch2 stays at 00. All as expected. Before CUE10 has completed its 30s down fade (say 10s into the fade), I GO on CUE11. Ch2 fades up in 3s as expected. However Ch1 now fades out in the 3s down time of CUE11, even though it is tracking (not tagged) in CUE11. I would have expected Ch1 to continue on its 30s down fade. Ch1 is tracking in CUE11 so I would not expect CUE11's down fade time of 3s to affect Ch1. In each cue (memory), I can confirm using Preview that Ch1 and Ch2 are either tagged [grey] in that cue or tracking [magenta] as expected, so I'm happy that the tagging is correctly set for each channel in each memory (cue). However I see CUE11 stomp over Ch1's CUE10 fade time for tracked Ch1 as described above. Am I doing something wrong, or is this not supported or is this a bug? Thanks, Kevin

What is stored in the desk between Full (record everything always) and Partial (tracked or non-tracked modes, user decides what is stored) is likely to be appreciably different, certainly in respect of what "tagged" data needs to be stored. Switching from Partial to Full will almost certainly mean a loss or corruption of the tagging data so you can't then switch from Full back to Partial and expect to be back where you were at the start. Also from a use-case point of view, you decide at the outset how you want to programme the show and exploit the facilities available in that mode - especially if we are talking about using the tracking feature, since that then gives you much more control over what data the desk actually stores and how that data is interpretted into the "look" on stage as each cue is executed. I'm not one of the software developers for the desk, so I don't actually know how the internal data structures in memory are stored and manipulated, just trying to make some "educated" assumptions how it might operate! As implied by X-Terminator in an earlier post, a one-way switch from Full to Partial may be possible (because you are elaborating the programming with tagging information), but as that post was from 2004 and the desk software has moved on a heck of a lot since that time - including the addition of Tracking functionality in Partial mode, I think you'd need to do some careful off-line testing of such a switch before relying on it as repeatable functionality. As Ian says you can always programme a new cue at any point, just by hitting the Program button, but I think your question relates to the Program Mode as set up in Super User. I don't think Zero88 support the concept of changing Programe Mode mid-program. In fact if you try it, a Warning dialog box comes saying "This may modify show data - continue ?"

Nick, its possible on the Leapfrog that F2 is labeled 'Name', but certainly on Phantom Frog Leapfrog setting its in the same position on the console as F2 would be on a Fat Frog. i.e 2nd button from the left on the very top row of buttons above the Master A/B faders. Kevin

Naming retrospectively is the same as if you were doing it as you are programming. Sorry if you already know the following and I missed the point of the question. The following works on the Phantom Frog Leapfrog setting with software 10.12 (latest). I don't think this functionality changed across software versions. <F2> Dialog Box=Select type of item to name <Memories> Dialog Box=Select Memory Number <Enter> or type number Dialog Box=Name Item <type name using keyboard><Enter> Job done!

Thanks guys. That makes sense. Just confused the heck out of me - back and forth to the fixture editor trying to work out what I did wrong! Kevin

Hi Keith, thanks for taking the time to look into this. Cheers, Kevin

Hi, I just defined a fixture for an Apollo RightArm (pan, tilt) [plus a brightness channel for the attached lamp]. This was defined from scratch, not by copying another fixture definition. In the fixture editor, this definition looks fine. However when I load it into my Fat Frog (10.12) and set a fixture (#10) to this profile, I get some other attributes showing on that fixture, that look like attributes from a MAC500 type fixture - Effect, SizeX, SizeY, Rotn etc. I don't have any MACs set as fixtures on the desk, although MAC fixtures do exist in the CFT on the desk. Ideas? Or how stupid have I been...? Screenshot of FF and FE, Fixtures file attached. Thanks, Kevin

Hi Paul, Is it correct that the SMPTE kit can only be fitted to the larger Frog series desks? i.e. it *can't* be fitted to the Frog and Fat Frog? Thanks, Kevin

Hi Jon, Have you any other suggestions for how we might make a 'setup disk' that contains palettes for a number of (led) fixtures that will be variably assigned to fixtures on the desk? I have several models of LED fixture that don't have identical DMX maps and it would be good to be able to set up and store colour palettes once rather than have to set up each time the desk is reset and the fixtures configured for a particular show. Thanks, Kevin

Peter, Maybe the following clarifications for your users on your sentence: The colour palettes on the Fat Frog are *palette* programming time options which means that you must select which fixture types and numbers (1-12) will use a colour palette WHEN the *palettes* are *programmed*. Kevin

Hi Peter. Just wanted to say thanks for the comprehensive response! I'll digest that all now! Thanks, Kevin

Peter, did you get anywhere with this? I also now have a similar requirement to want to save a palette library not knowing now what combinations of fixtures I will map for a given show...

Hi, As you found in your para 3 above, the palette is programmed with the data for the fixtures that are selected at palette programming time, so if you ever wanted to apply a palette to fixture 4 then the palette needed to be programmed with fixture 4 selected having dialed up the required "look". I haven't tried this... but maybe if you have spare palettes (FatFrog has 48 colour palettes if I remember correctly assuming you have recent software **) you could programme a set with the PL1s configured on all 12 fixtures, then redefine the 12 fixtures as your other LED type then reprogramme another set of palettes (again all 12 selected). Then if you have a mixture of fixtures configured you can apply the PL1 palettes to those fixtures (or the subset you wanted) and the other palettes to your other units. Creating the floppy as you suggest is a good idea. Remember a palette is a specific look of a set of fixtures colour/beamshape/position (as appropriate) and is much more powerful than just storing a setting for "red" which you apply to one or more fixtures. When I first started using the console I thought I stored a palette as e.g. "red" then applied that to one or more selected fixtures at "runtime", but this is not how palettes actually work. Your para 2 reads like you also had the same (incorrect) perception as me at that time. Hope that helps, or if nothing else something to try (with a couple of simple palettes to start with!) Kevin **Edit: FatFrog has 48 of each palette from software 10.8, see release notes: http://zero88.com/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/GetAttachment/56/554

Hi Jon, Seems to work so far on Win8.1... Risky - yes, I attached a safety bond to my belt before "launching"! Thanks, Kevin

Thanks, Keith. I'm going to try it on Win8 at home now. Risky?!

Hi Ian (long time no-see!). Interesting - I wasn't aware of that feature! Anyway, it suggested running under XP-SP2 settings. The FE started, Win7 survived, but the FE is completely locked itself now (can't even promote the window to the front!). Will try and get rid of it and try another setting (although I was forced to save the settings for this program which seems a little premature for maybe intermittant issues...) Cheers, Kevin Hmm, same behaviour with XP-SP3 compatibility. It seems what happens, is the FE starts, the dialog comes up asking whether you want to open an existing fixture or start a new one, but then closes itself straight away. Then the FE itself is locked. Just started the FE 5 times from the start menu (as I was before the OP) and no problems (as in Win7 doesn't crash and the FE appears usable). But I'm not sure now if it's running with some compatibility settings Win7 has burried under the hood. Jon - if you could comment if Win7 is supported then I'll put it down to bad luck, or try and note symptoms if the issue reoccurs. Thanks, Kevin

On 2 out of 3 invokations of the Fixture Editor 2.6.0.0 on my Win7 laptop, the splash graphic appears then the laptop has been completely locked up, requiring a 5-second power button to reset the machine. Is 2.6.0.0. compatible with Win7? Thanks, Kevin

Hi jaylees. Just to elaborate on what Keith says, you will need to drive the remote input from something like an open-collector transistor, not a push-pull output stage. I don't know what the Pi has for GPIO and whether this can be configured push-pull or open-collector/open-drain. Whatever the stage, it would need to be 12V tolerant and you will end up needing to common the 0V of the Fat Frog with the 0V of the Pi. Given that both pieces of kit are powered from switch mode supplies and their grounds could be floating or at different potentials I'm not sure a direct connection would be the best idea. Maybe better to use an opto isolator like 6N139 to isolate the Fat Frog from the Pi (which is what I did with my wireless remote control, details of which used to be on this forum but have since disappeared over the various migrations...). Here is some very useful information I got from Paul way back that elaborates on the input stage so you can come up with a reliable interface circuit between the Pi and remote inputs: "The remote inputs on the Frog series have a 10K pull-up to +12V, then a 10K series resistor and some clamping diodes, before being fed to a 4051 mux and on to a micro A/D pin. The software simply looks for a voltage < 2.5V at the A/D pin to determine a remote switch closure. A simple open-collector NPN transistor will be fine to trigger a remote input. The maximum collector current will only be 1mA or so, and maximum Vce is 12V, so really any old transistors you have lying around will do. You might want to put a current limiting resistor in your circuit too, to protect your transistors a bit in case someone plugs your remote thing in to a standard analogue control connector which may have a low impedance +10V supply on the pins. 100ohms or so should do, this will limit the maximum collector current through the transistors in case of a fault, and won't affect the voltage read by the Frog significantly in normal use. " Hope that helps. Kevin

Flat battery? Contact Keith at Zero88 who can help identify if this is the case and how to replace the internal memory backup battery.

Hi Matt, This sounds to me like the electronics in the "control box" have failed - it would seem the control circuit is not switching the mains supply properly any more. Maybe Keith can suggest some falure modes since this "control box" appears to be a dimmer circuit. You can rule out a problem with the Frog, by repatching the channels used to control your house lights to a different set of faders. If with a different set of faders you still see the problem then I would suspect the "control box". If the problem goes away then maybe there is an issue with the faders you were originally using. If you need help repatching the channels, either see the manual (downloadable from this website) or ask again. Good luck, Kevin

Hi, You need to edit the fixture definition (using the Windows Fixture Editor utility) to modify the HOME parameters for the fixture types you are using (then reload them into the desk from a floppy). http://support.zero88.com/main/en/download/13 http://support.zero88.com/main/en/download/302 Regards, Kevin

I've just had a play with the desk (s/w v10.12) and you don't need to program the memories. Just set the fixture dimmer at 100%, select Submasters screen, select the required submaster and click Program. The Fixtures library already contains a single dimmer fixture under <CONVENTIONALS> DIMMER, so this can be used to assign to fixtures the extra number of generic channels required.

As an addendum to my posting, users may wish to set the Fat Frog into "Full" mode (Desk Setup->Program Mode) rather than "Partial" mode so that the console does not do tracking with the extra generics (if you don't know what tracking is then definately set the desk to "Full" mode!). Users experienced enough to use Partial mode and tracking or those with movers in their rig can make up their own mind which setting to use!

This is well after the event for Ian, but I thought I'd have a go at working this through in case anyone else has this issue. I suspect this topic has already been covered somewhere else on the forum so I may be regurgitating existing ideas. So assuming Ian just wants more channels of conventional dimmers, he could get up to 12 more channels on a Fat Frog by creating a dimmer-only "moving" fixture. In the standard fixture list there is a Lamp+Scroller, but you could create a new fixture using the off-line Fixture Editor that just has a dimmer. Using the 10.10 Off-line editor for Fat Frog I was able to allocate the standard Lamp+Scroller to two fixtures and with the DMX patch, allocate Ch49 and Ch50 to the "lamp" section of the fixture (I didn't need to allocate a channel to the scroller). Since the dimmer part of a fixture uses HTP rather than LTP then the submaster should be able to control the brightness. It will be necessary to program a memory stack location beyond the end of the show's cue stack (maybe add a Jump to Q1 at the end of your show) for each of the fixtures, one at a time, with dimmer at full (select the fixture so the yellow LED is on then first finger wheel to dimmer 100%). Then the submaster will need to point to that memory entry with "Transfer No Time". When programming the memory make sure the Ch49 lamp is the only one that's on so that's all the memory contains, and after programming, wheel the fixture dimmer back down to zero otherwise that channel will remain at 100%. The Outputs screen is useful to see this. I tried this using the off-line editor with a cue "onstage" and the submaster had the desired control over the fixture. When building a show cue stack the submaster will have control of the channel just as if it was a Preset A/B fader and can be programmed into the show. I tried this with a show loaded and programmed the Ch49 into the cue using the submaster and it played back as desired, fading in and out with the rest of the cue. This can be seen on the Outputs screen under the Fixture Brightness Outputs banner. So you've got 48+12=60 generic channels to play with. Probably cleaner to use the Fixture editor to create a "Lamp" fixture type with just a dimmer attribute. Maybe Peter will do that for us for the next Fixture release If Ian's LED lamp was RGB then there is a fixture type specifically for these luminaires and I believe "virtual brightness" concept is supported on the Fat Frog to handle these RGB LED units.

JMH, The FatFrog does not have a macro function. The macro function is only avaialable on the newer desks - Frog2, ORB, maybe the new LeapFrog. The fixture editor is common to all of the Zero88 desks supporting moving lights, but some of the attributes and functions (like macro) only relate to the newer/higher spec desks. The fixture file written out for the FatFrog excludes the data items that desk can't use. Regards, Kevin